Good First Live Steam Model Locomotive

[dashik]

Hi there,

New to this but not entirely uneducated and I can find out/research plenty on how to do stuff and I'm not afraid to ask!

I'm currently about to build a Stuart S50 and probably another one or two of their kits.

Looking a bit further ahead I fancy machining/building a live steam locomotive and It seems like a good choice would be the 3.5" guage Rob Roy 0-6-0 and the cast/cut parts from Blackgates Engineering.

Are there any other interesting alternatives before I start buying the plans and stockpiling parts and materials?

I've ordered the Rob Roy and William book that's available and look forward to reading that .

Thanks in advance

James

[kipford]

James
Welcome, I am on my first loco, which is a 5" gauge Don Young designed L and Y Aspinall class 27. Why am I am building it?
1. I model LNWR and hence L and Y loco's in 4mm scale and wanted a loco based on a protoype not something loosely based on one. I hate it when locos are given names like Netta or Speedy.
2. It had to be 5" gauge because I intend (hopefully) to use it a GL5 events (google it).
3. They are not that common.
4. It can be driven without having to remove large parts of the cab, so will look right in use.

What I m saying is, think about what you want out of a locomotive and build the thing you want, not something because it looks easy. They are all complex items to build, just some have a few more bits than others.

Dave

[Deleted]

Hi James

First up, welcome to the forum.

Some will say, build something simple, I disagree and would agree with Dave's words, build what you really want to build.
Having said that, the caveat to this is that your own skill level will greatly affect the outcome, whether it's a simple or complicated design, they all have their challenges. Only you will know what skills you already have and equipment to build.
No matter what you chose there will be parts to test you, this is when you are better building something that you really wish to own/drive.

Good luck in whatever you chose to build.

Pete

[ejparrott]

I always say, build what YOU want, not what someone tells you to build.

[coniston]

I can only agree with the previous comments. It is a long slog building a loco and too many are languishing under benches in sheds after interest has been lost. If you really want to own and operate the loco then you will have the incentive to complete it. A tyro member in one of the clubs I belong to is starting a Penhros Grange in 5" as his first build for these very reasons.

There are many good designs for 3 1/2" as well as 5" locos available as I'm sure you have already found out. One thing against a Rob Roy is the small size, yes it is easy to man handle but not very forgiving as a novice loco to drive with limited pulling capacity, yes I know they will pull a couple of adults with ease but in experienced hands.

Outside cylinders AND valve gear makes building and maintenance a bit easier IMHO something more like Martin Evans Jubilee or the William design. Your best option is to join your local model engineering club and see what others have and run to get a good idea of how they perform unless of course you are building it purely for the enjoyment of building and not necessarily running.

I'm sure you will get as many different ideas as the number of people you talk to, good luck with your research

Chris D

[Gary L]

Feb 10, 2021 23:19:48 GMT coniston said:

I can only agree with the previous comments. It is a long slog building a loco and too many are languishing under benches in sheds after interest has been lost. If you really want to own and operate the loco then you will have the incentive to complete it. A tyro member in one of the clubs I belong to is starting a Penhros Grange in 5" as his first build for these very reasons.

There are many good designs for 3 1/2" as well as 5" locos available as I'm sure you have already found out. One thing against a Rob Roy is the small size, yes it is easy to man handle but not very forgiving as a novice loco to drive with limited pulling capacity, yes I know they will pull a couple of adults with ease but in experienced hands.

Outside cylinders AND valve gear makes building and maintenance a bit easier IMHO something more like Martin Evans Jubilee or the William design. Your best option is to join your local model engineering club and see what others have and run to get a good idea of how they perform unless of course you are building it purely for the enjoyment of building and not necessarily running.

I'm sure you will get as many different ideas as the number of people you talk to, good luck with your research

Chris D

Great advice from Chris. I would particularly take on board what he says about size. 3 ½” gauge seems enormous compared to (say) 00, but small locos in that scale can be tricky to drive, and that’s the last thing you want in your first loco. If you want to pull passengers regularly, something in 5” is likely to give you more satisfaction. It needs to fit your lathe, obviously, but bear in mind that lathes cost less than locos!

Best of luck

Gary

[dscott]

Our Workshop resembles a RESCUE CENTER FOR ABANDONED PROJECTS.
And within you will find 2 Rob Roy starts.
One I do love is the one built on board a ship to stop the guy getting bored.

I got to drive a Rob Roy round the Andover Track which was fun as I usually stick
to 5 " Gauge and now Bigger.
Of course I did a rework based upon them having Gemma Boilers as I have a set of formers.
And I found the boiler a bit on the small side.



For the tender a Doris tender frame with Pannier tanks giving a generous coal space
between.

David and Lily.

[JonL]

I have a William, and from the book I would say that it is probably the better locomotive than the Rob Roy as the boiler is slightly larger, and the valve gear probably easier to make (all subjective of course, I think the Rob Roy is more handsome). That being said I finished off someone else's part built Locomotive (it had a boiler with no fittings, all the running gear but not running, I had to remake quite a few bits there) so I didn't build it from scratch. I have a thread on here called Just William that documents some of it.

I would agree that 5" is easier to drive, you don't have to be fussing over the boiler all the time, but I find that all part of the fun! I can pull a few people behind me but not many. Everything is cheaper being 3.5", and very easy to carry around compared to the bigger gauge stuff.

As mentioned before, if it's not something you will love you may lose the urge to finish it! Probably the easiest thing to build and drive is a sweet pea, great access to all components, minimum of castings to buy, huge simple boiler for 5",very easy to drive. But I didn't build one at the time as I wasn't really interested in narrow gauge. That being said if I was starting from scratch I'd probably get over that as a sweet pea would be a great learning experience.

Going to a model Engineering society is extremely useful. I went along to mine to ask some timid beginners questions and in no time I had a band of friendly willing teachers eager to assist me. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say it was life changing. By the time my Locomotive was finished I'd already got quite a bit of experience driving other locomotives generously loaned by other members and new what I wanted and also was able to tell which issues I was having were down to workmanship and which were down to driving techniques!

Whatever you decide, the very best of luck. 3.5" is getting less common but back in the day it rather outnumbered 5" gauge as it was more affordable and easier for the novice to make on equipment at home. 5" has rather taken over now but the reasons I mention for building 3.5" are still very strong. Probably most important is that you go find out what track your local MES has. If it's only got 5" gauge for example that rather helps with the decision!

[weary]

If you want to have a browse of the range of small locomotives available then maybe have a look at the small live steam engines wiki:

smalllivesteamengines.fandom.com/wiki/SmallLiveSteamEngines_Wiki .

'Nobbysideways' (response immediately above) is the major contributor to this site, but modestly didn't mention it. It has details of sources of castings, drawings, etc., and is a very useful resource. Particularly if you are looking for inspiration or basic information about any particular design.

Regards,
Phil

[stevep]

James,

I will add my thoughts to those above, and with which I agree.

My first loco was a Rob Roy. I am still driving it after 40 odd years (or I was until Covid came along), but often wish I had built something a bit bigger.

3 1/2" gauge has the advantage of being lighter to move about, but a small 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 doesn't have a lot of power. And for a newcomer to driving a steam locomotive, it is not very forgiving when you get low on steam, water or fire.

I think William is a better bet than Rob Roy, or go for a small 5" gauge. But as mentioned before, build what you want, not what someone else tells you to build. If you want a 5" 9F, then go for it (although it might take you a long time!).

[andyhigham]

Build the loco you want. A larger more complicated loco can be broken down into smaller simpler tasks.
If you want to build something quick and easy to get your a feel for what is involved, the "Sweet Pea" and it's variants are an ideal choice

[parovoz]

My first steam loco is a 7 1/4"g main line 2-6-2 at exactly 10 feet long including bogie tender. But I'm a loony ! However the enthusiasm and motivation has never waned and It's now almost complete.....

Definitely build what motivates you and don't think 'SMALL' is easy. Often larger is easier as the 'small' parts are easier to handle. The often cited beginners traction engine is the 1 1/2" scale Alchin. It's a watchmakers job, a 2" or even 3" scale Burrell is actually FAR easier to build. Ideal beginners engines are the chunkier 5 inch or 7 1/4 inch designs. 0-4-0 s are good, but the jump to more complex engines is not as big as it first seems. An extra axle or two in the grand scheme of things is really nothing much......

All the best as " what shall I build" is a fun and enjoyable decision to work on.

[tigermoth]

I echo those of my peers above. Go with what you want to build, only you can make it easy or hard, ok it is hard work learning, but look at the result when it all goes together and you can say to yourself (and any one else who will listen) I built that.

My first attempt was a 5" King, Kennions thought I was mad (true) I had no engineering background and no workshop to start with but with a lot of advice and building up a workshop I actually got a chassis that ran on air before circumstance dictated that it all had to go, worst decision I ever had to make (far worse than getting rid of two wife's).

Yes it was a very steep learning curve but it was what I wanted to do and was prepared to learn, boy did I make mistakes BUT I learned from them (as we all do).

[smallbrother]

I'm a beginner and am very far outside my comfort zone with metalworking. My profession was Civil Engineering. I had never touched a lathe until I started this hobby 12 years ago and bought one to give it a go.

I am fortunate to have several engines built by others that I can have fun driving while I very quietly work on my 3.5" gauge Juliet.

The thought of ruining expensive castings due to my clumsiness led me to choose a small and cheap project. If it ever gets finished, it would thrill me to do a lap or two. The fact it is small, isn't an actual scale model and wouldn't pull much load doesn't bother me one jot.

The key is to have a crack at something.

Pete.

[andrewtoplis]

I was in your shoes a few months back.  I have no technical/engineering background at all and had not touched a lathe since a brief play at school 20 years ago.  

I've gone with a 3.5" gauge Northumbrian because:

• I like early locos,
• It is about as simple a locomotive as you can possibly get,
• I can build the tender first (giving the simplest possible route in to the project),
• The sheer physical size of something like a sweet pea as a first job made me nervous,
• I personally wanted something that was reasonably recently written up, so no searching out old magazines (this time anyway).

My choice appears odd based on many of the comments here (!) but is influenced by my current rock-bottom skill level where I spend two hours puzzling for every one hour machining!  

Best of luck whatever you decide

[dashik]

Hi everyone, Thanks for the reply's, all good points. The thinking behind the 3 1/2 gauge is that the model is smaller. Its that simple. I have a single garage workshop (I am aware that's more than some), but also not a lot of free space around the house to store the completed model.

Its not impossible that within a few years a house move will be on the cards with, potentially a larger garage for a workshop. At which point a 5" model will be much more attractive. I think building the smaller model will help me learn all the relevant skills and help when it comes to building the larger model. Also I'll have something to drive potentially a lot earlier.

My nearest MES is the Edinburgh one on the outskirts of Livingston as far as I can tell but I am in East Lothian so its a considerable drive. I'll get to that about once or twice a month possibly if they are taking members. In the Future its not impossible that the aforementioned house move will take me to just south of Leicester so the club there will be much closer. Both clubs have 3 1/2 and 5 gauge as far as I can tell.

So unfortunately due to current times I suspect it will be a while before I can attend a local MES, particularly as I work with occasionally Covid+ patients... I doubt unwittingly spreading the virus would do me any favor's lol....

I can see the merits of the William so I'm reading the book on the Rob Roy and William, I understand the differences between the smaller v larger models and that larger is more often the easer to build.

I think the 3 1/2 will suit. I just need to decided on the model. Currently its the Rob Roy but I have time to decide. I'll also rake around and see what else is out there. I'm the worst kind of perfectionist so it can take time to make the parts right... That's the fun! What I disliked about aeromodelling and helicopters is the time investment in building an airplane that you could destroy in less than 30 seconds, as for helicopters they were fun but a real money sink and you just assembled them basically, The attraction to model engineering is its a real challenge that develops skills and leaves you, hopefully, with an exciting locomotive to drive occasionally while you built the next...

Thanks again for all the reply's, They are very useful.

James

[andyhigham]

Done that and bought the T shirt with model planes. Balsa and tissue paper don't take kindly to hitting the ground

[Oily Rag]

For a small 5" first time loco, perhaps consider "Blowfly"

mesupplies.com.au/product/drawings-locomotive-castings-5-gauge-blowfly/

The designer frequents this forum, and nice work it is.

[Jim]

I can only echo the advice to "build what you really like and want."

When I was considering my first project I was told by a very experienced club member that, 'you're going to spend a lot of time and effort working on whatever your choice of model so best you spend that time on something you really like and want.' and that's how I came to build the 3" Burrell single crank compound Devonshire Engine.

With only the drawings to follow I bought reference books on how to deal with specific issues such as gear cutting and compounding. As a result I learned how to cut straight and bevel gears among other things and I think I got the ratios between the high and low pressure cylinders right

All projects be they a 'beginner's model'  or a main line express passenger loco, have their issues that need to be solved and all will take up an awful lot of your time which brings us back to the advice already given to build what you really, really want as you will spend a lot of time and energy on the project.

Stay safe,

Jim

[dscott]

Yes, build what you like.
My problem is I love so many and like 2 lathes over the summer I couldn't say NO to many that turned up at a wonderful price and a professional Boiler in tow. Simplex. Jinty. Jessie.

I have spent the day getting warm in the workshop cutting 1/8" plate by hand.
Then the last 2 hours marking out the inner frames for my version of Asia. A lovely Locomotive but with some of the worst drawings.
This is what you will have to watch. Only about 10 brave people have ever finished one it seems.
I started with a clean sheet of card and a works drawing.

Jim, back in the 1980's I got to know a Single Crank owner and their lovely Full Size Engine!!!

David and Lily.