Noddy
Statesman
Posts: 672
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Post by Noddy on Dec 3, 2007 16:27:03 GMT
I thought there were lots of mills on the go:
Saw a Senior (not entirely sure whether junior or major) yesterday. It was starting to get a little bit of rust on the table but otherwise looks v good. plain (no quill feed) vertical head and overarm all ok.
z travel handle was a bit hesitant in taking up feed, HMMMM?
Guy is wanting €800 (about £550)
to bite or not to?
He also had a round head colchester student (shabby) and a nicer variable speed Boxford A with gearbox and variable speed pulley drive, but with some serious dents on the v ways close to the head.
also saw a VMC. it was horrible. fine quill feed not working, broken plastic handles, and just NASTY. The guy was asking €1300 (I didn't laugh 'til he was out of site.
Keith
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Post by lampstart on Dec 15, 2007 23:23:36 GMT
the problem with senior mills is the vertical heads lack of clearance between spindle and table,not sufficient room for even a reasonable sized job,thats why I sold mine,
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2008 20:37:29 GMT
Don't know whether you bought the Senior. It was probably an M1. I have one and the clearance under the vertical head is limited. Several ways round this:
Turn the vertical head round 90 and work in the horizontal plane, but still using end mill or drills.
I welded up an extra spacer from 50 mm square tube, this goes under the main column with a set of extended holding down bolts. This means the knee now runs about 25 mm off the base of the column. However, I have not noticed any problem with lack of rigidity and that extra 50 mm of headroom is wonderful.
Final option - a mate has a Senior M1 with a scrap Bridgeport head bolted on the top (the motor platform area).
Overall, I think the Senior is a very solid machine with plenty of cast iron in all the right places.
Good luck with your choice of machine,
Martin
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Noddy
Statesman
Posts: 672
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Post by Noddy on Jan 14, 2008 11:23:54 GMT
Thanks Lampstart and Mthefreewheel.
Unfortunately I missed it, someone got there with the cash for the mill and the 2 lathes as well midweek.
I was only interested in the mill, and couldn't get 'til the weekend.
oh well, back to dreaming about Deckels.
Keith
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abby
Statesman
Posts: 927
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Post by abby on Jan 15, 2008 5:04:53 GMT
Haven't been able to find the right mill yet but still looking , I have bought a Clarkson cutter grinder though , needs some work but nothing serious , so no mill but hopefully sharp cutters !
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Noddy
Statesman
Posts: 672
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Post by Noddy on Jan 15, 2008 14:07:00 GMT
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Noddy
Statesman
Posts: 672
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Post by Noddy on Jan 16, 2008 10:42:07 GMT
;DIf they're anything like the mini lathes, they probably need the refurb when they're new!
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abby
Statesman
Posts: 927
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Post by abby on Jan 16, 2008 10:47:20 GMT
Of course there is a demand for Deckels and any oyher small tool room quality machinery that is why the price new or second hand is so high . I don't like to knock Asian stuff but the Chinese it seems can't even produce good quality china anymore if the dinner plates I recently bought are anything to go by. The Chinese are good at producing cheap stuff for throwing away and cater for a huge western market. Their machines appear to follow the same philosophy, they may look like a Myford or a Boxford, a Bridgport or a Deckel but they ain't , there is no re-furb because the skills required would produce a machine that costs more than new. Just a few years ago my local importer had a skip full of motors which had been replaced with British made motors before the machines could be sold. Given time the Asian engineering may become comparable to western but at present it is far away.
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abby
Statesman
Posts: 927
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Post by abby on Jan 17, 2008 21:26:02 GMT
drjohn , I used the term Asian to describe the products of India and China , despite its location I consider Japan to be a western country. As you have already admitted knowing little about machinery there seems little point in argueing the toss , I will just say if you had used ,even an old ,quality milling machine of European or American manufacture , and Deckel is just one ,then you would understand. Warco , like 99% of mail order/ internet tool suppliers buy from China - where did you think they got them from - the moon ? and in the spirit of your post perhaps you could eat one of your fellow countrymen's straw hats !
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steam4ian
Elder Statesman
One good turn deserves another
Posts: 2,069
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Post by steam4ian on Jan 18, 2008 21:43:58 GMT
G'day Abby et al.
I join in with John on this one. Certainly a lot of what originates from China is not of top standard. But be warned, DO NOT under estimate the skill of Chinese manufacture. Their quality will increase. One thing I have learned and I am sure Dr John knows, is that the Chinese as a race are consummate traders and skilled artisans. You want it, they'll get it.
I am old enough to remember scoffing at Japanese goods only to see them overtake the British in the supply of heavy industry equipment and our Oz industries in electronics. There is no doubt that China will follow and become a very strong force in world manufacture.
For me, thanks to China, I have a lathe, mill and other machinery I otherwise could not afford, purchased at a fraction of the price of the "old" brands.
Some here may be skilled tool makers; but my assessment is that the least accurate tool in the shop is on the side of the hand-wheel away from the machine.
Regards, Ian
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Post by havoc on Jan 18, 2008 22:45:16 GMT
My toughts exactly. Sorry, but an old worn piece of machinery is an old piece of machinery never mind the brand and price they ask for it. I know I won't replace the bearings of my chinese stuff. Very likely because it will never wear out in my lifetime unless I do something stupid with it. And I don't underestimate that probability.
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abby
Statesman
Posts: 927
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Post by abby on Jan 20, 2008 15:23:16 GMT
Then you are well satisfied , so please allow us stuck in the box , western overpaid looneys to have our views, after all we do live in the free west.
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Noddy
Statesman
Posts: 672
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Post by Noddy on Jan 21, 2008 11:44:15 GMT
Lad dies! some decorum, please.... John, I'd never heard of Pallas before today, so I've been over to lathes.co.uk to read up. What was wrong with the thing? worn out and loose? bendy and flimsy? just plain awkward? Keith
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Noddy
Statesman
Posts: 672
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Post by Noddy on Jan 21, 2008 13:06:50 GMT
Ahh, I don't suppose those little blue pills that the spammers keep trying to sell me would be much help to an elderly mill? although they might stop it from rolling out of bed ;D Along the same lines,I think I've worked out the reason for burkas... Beer isn't allowed Keith
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Post by houstonceng on Jan 21, 2008 19:07:59 GMT
I've got a taiwanese mill - a Warco A1S. Looked exactly the same as the Myford VME except for the colour and price. (Just how much more did they charge for the name - "Myford" on the top ? About £1000.00)
The A1S/VME has a slightly bigger table than the VMC, but you'd need to be armed with a ruler or see them side-by-side to suss out all the differences.
I bought mine with 3-phase/Inverter drive and with the optional power cross-feed.
After spending many fruitless journeys to see supposedly "pristine" second hand M/Cs (private sales and dealers) - including Tom Seniors and the like - lots of which had lumps out of the T Slots or drill marks in the table (many overpriced) and were nearly all in urgent need of new feed screws (backlash of 1/16" or more), I decided that I'd rather get on with Model Engineering, on a Warco, than wait for the perfect second-hand European M/C that everyone else seemed to be able to pick up for a song.
Have had no problems with the Warco and received excellent service from Roger - personally -with the 13/27 Taiwanese Lathe, A1S Mill, Pillar Drill and Band-saw - all "Warco Brand" (usual disclaimer).
BTW Noddy. That VMC with the non-working fine-feed to the quill. You did screw in the clutch on the LHS of the head, just above the feed-wheel - didn't you ? It don't engage otherwise.
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Noddy
Statesman
Posts: 672
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Post by Noddy on Jan 22, 2008 13:53:37 GMT
Hi Andy, I have had serious thoughts of getting a VMC to get going. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti Chinese, and certainly not anti Taiwan/ Nationalist China.
I think Myford's claim of added value was a check for correct alignment, re wiring and new switch gear. I don't know whether they did any scraping in of bearing surfaces or not, but In a choice I would go the Warco direction too.
The VMC clone that I wrote about had parts missing from the left hand side of the quill mount. It was possible to push some loose parts in but not to get them to disengage again. That much was probably down to a negligent owner rather than quality of manufacture, but the broken plastic handles on the table and knee feeds and the nobbly looking castings gave the impression of nastiness. There was about 1/2 a turn of backlash on the X feed as well.
The Tom Senior which I saw was in much better shape, and with the superficial speckling of rust cleaned off would have been almost like new, for 2/3 the price of that wrecked VMC.
I'm still looking and learning lots allong the way, for example learning about John's old Pallas, yesterday.
Thanks for the post Keith
ps, I see there's a centec appeared for sale on Lathes.co.uk
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Post by teakfreak on Jan 22, 2008 15:53:45 GMT
The perfect mill for ME use seems to be very elusive. I have a Warco Economy which does most of what I asked, although I hate the round column which can lead to disaster if a cutter grabs badly. I'd like a biggish table so that I could coordinate-drill an entire length of 5" gauge loco frames in one go, but this would be Bridgeport territory. But even if I traded up to a VMC-type machine I wouldn't get that much of an increase in table size. Its a pity that no-one offers a VMC type machine with a larger table as an option.
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Noddy
Statesman
Posts: 672
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Post by Noddy on Jan 22, 2008 16:50:05 GMT
Hi Teakfreak, I think you've hit the nail on the head, there are probably as many different and probably incompatable wishes / requirements as there are people wanting mills.
I was speaking to Ivan Law, some time ago, and asked him about the "Dore-Westbury" which, although not as big or stiff as a VMC, has a reputation for versatility, as well as having square slide ways to allow easy re-scraping and truing.
He said that the last batch castings had to sell at about £1,000 a set to cover costs and make a reasonable return, so although the little Asian mills were less versatile, they were ready to go almost straight away and at less cost. He still has all of the patterns though.
That said, I'm sure that if there is enough demand, someone will start to produce tables and lead screws "by the foot"
When I went to see the Deckel, the guy was also trying to sell a Hessap NC vertical mill with a 5 foot table on it. the head is variable speed and goes up to about 9k revs. Trouble there is that the mill weighs about 5 tonnes. interestingly he only wants about €3400 for it .
Compare that to the £5k+ being asked for a second hand super 7.
Keith
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Post by houstonceng on Jan 24, 2008 21:34:18 GMT
Noddy
I don't think you are anti-Taiwanesse/Chinese or anything. Just thought that, when viewing the VMC clone, you may have missed the screw-in clutch for fine-feed on the quill.
BTW. Warco did a good job on the Lathe and Mill by using Brit Motors (originally a Brook-Crompton 1-Phase on the Lathe). Wiring them up and, on the mill, fitting the Inverter-drive + 3-phase motor and Power-feed.
I think I got the same checks on the mill as Myford offered for a lot less money. Infortunately, neither Myford nor Warco offer the VME/VMF type mills any longer.
Looking back, (wonderful thing is hind-sight) I should have bought the lathe with 3-phase motor and inverter as original fitting. That's what I converted it to recently to get over the 1-Phase motor shortfalls.
Regards Andy
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