billj pump
Active Member
yourallabunchofgreatguys
Posts: 30
|
hi all
Jan 24, 2006 7:03:30 GMT
Post by billj pump on Jan 24, 2006 7:03:30 GMT
hi, newbie here , just saying hi to you all, Ive read a few past threads and seems like this is the place i need to be for all my questions i need to ask, ive just got into steam engines after 45 years of being uninterested in the topic, and now im buzzed making my first engine, its of my own design just to see if it works and to test my machining skills. i have a small workshop 11'x9' with some biggish machines in it, if your interested i have put a website together showing my machines and some metalworking projects i have done, im self taught and do a lot of reading to teach myself. www.metalworking.piczo.com my first question is:- on a steam engine do you have a cylinder head gasket? or does the cylinder/head just have a machined surface for sealing?, billj
|
|
|
hi all
Jan 24, 2006 7:50:33 GMT
Post by 3405jimmy on Jan 24, 2006 7:50:33 GMT
By you been busy Bill, nice set up, like the ball turners.
Jim
|
|
|
hi all
Jan 24, 2006 9:56:18 GMT
Post by the_viffer on Jan 24, 2006 9:56:18 GMT
hi, newbie here ... my first question is:- on a steam engine do you have a cylinder head gasket? or does the cylinder/head just have a machined surface for sealing?, billj Wotcha. I'm a newbie too. The posh blokes use special jointing. T'old men use gaskets made out of brown paper bags or envelopes soaked in light machine oil. Personally I use products of the chemical industry (since it has kept me in beer for most of my working life). Many other application gasket sealants are fine at the kind of temperatures we use. One of the advantages of something runny out of a tube is that you don't spend ages making cutouts and bolt holes leaving more time for the fun jobs. Have fun!
|
|
|
hi all
Jan 24, 2006 10:50:56 GMT
Post by Tel on Jan 24, 2006 10:50:56 GMT
I usually draw my gaskets with Turbocad, print 'em on 90gsm paper, cut 'em out & oil 'em
|
|
billj pump
Active Member
yourallabunchofgreatguys
Posts: 30
|
hi all
Jan 25, 2006 2:59:30 GMT
Post by billj pump on Jan 25, 2006 2:59:30 GMT
thanks for the info, can anyone recommend a twin vertical steam engine kit thats either "v" or "inline", pretty easy to build, around 1" diam piston size (sorry i dont know the terminology), and around 7-8 inches total height, i have looked at the photo sections and you fellas have turned out some very impressive engines, i noted that some are scratch built but this is not in my capabilities as yet so im in need of kit form for now.
billj
|
|
|
hi all
Jan 25, 2006 7:50:19 GMT
Post by the_viffer on Jan 25, 2006 7:50:19 GMT
thanks for the info, can anyone recommend a twin vertical steam engine kit thats either "v" or "inline", pretty easy to build, around 1" diam piston size (sorry i dont know the terminology), and around 7-8 inches total height, i have looked at the photo sections and you fellas have turned out some very impressive engines, i noted that some are scratch built but this is not in my capabilities as yet so im in need of kit form for now. billj Well usually people recommend the Stuart 10 (www.stuartmodels.com). A D10 is just 2 of them. Tom Walshaw (Tubal Cain) reckoned on making a 10 in a weekend. Takes me longer. He reckoned to make one without machine tools just a hand drill and files in the same time! I did one like that once and it was real challenge of filing skills. You might find it a bit easy but putting the reversing gear and feed pump on make it more of a job. Stuarts also do a rather larger 2 cylinder engine which can either be a compound or a twin which is better looking and a bit more interesting.
|
|
|
hi all
Jan 25, 2006 14:10:04 GMT
Post by Jo on Jan 25, 2006 14:10:04 GMT
I agree with Viffer. The D10 has a 3/4" bore but if you do want to go up to a 1" they also do the twin Launch, which is also pretty straight forward.
My experience is that the Stuart kits are excellent quality but you get what you pay for......
Have you considered how you are going to drive this engine? If you are going to make a twin engine with 1" bore thats a reasonable amount of steam or a bigger compressor than the D10 would require. (I only mention as I made a Twin Tandem Compound and the swept volume for the high pressure cylinders is the same as a 3.5" locomotive, so my little diaphram compressor couldn't cope)
|
|
|
hi all
Jan 25, 2006 15:43:24 GMT
Post by the_viffer on Jan 25, 2006 15:43:24 GMT
I bet you are not my wife then.
|
|
billj pump
Active Member
yourallabunchofgreatguys
Posts: 30
|
hi all
Jan 25, 2006 18:22:20 GMT
Post by billj pump on Jan 25, 2006 18:22:20 GMT
ill have a look at the stuart range, thanks,,,now this brings me onto the next question:- i have now got the copper for the boiler,, i payed £10 for a piece of 60mm x3mm x320mm seamless copper pipe and 2 foot of copper plate 2" x 3/16", i love my bargains! now the question is do i silver solder or solder with the plumbers stuff?
billj
|
|
|
hi all
Jan 25, 2006 18:46:06 GMT
Post by spurley on Jan 25, 2006 18:46:06 GMT
Bill Hopefully that last bit was a bit of humour? PLEASE make sure you use silver solder of a suitable temperature range and follow the guidelines for copper boilers www.cdsme.co.uk/HSE%20Guidelines%202004.doc . Plumber's solder is likely to 'let go' at the type of temperatures experienced by a steam boiler and will not provide anything like the strength needed for a pressure vessel. If you are a member of a club I am sure there will also be plenty of advice available from fellow members. Failing that a very good book on the subject is by Alec Farmer, Building Model Boilers. He takes you through the whole process with a series of good pictures. Please remember that a steam boiler, even a small one at 80psi has the potential to kill and should be treated with respect. A vessel full of steam and boiling water will act like a bomb in the event of failure and the steam and water will continue to expand should a rupture occur. This could be OK if you and only you intend to use the boiler but if you are intending to use it in public or even with a few friends you ought to have a boiler certificate to provide some cover for yourself and those around you. Sorry if this seems a little forceful but I'd hate to read about a problem for you that could have been avoided by me sending this email!! Good luck with the projects. Cheers Brian
|
|
billj pump
Active Member
yourallabunchofgreatguys
Posts: 30
|
hi all
Jan 25, 2006 19:03:51 GMT
Post by billj pump on Jan 25, 2006 19:03:51 GMT
brian, thanks for the very good advice and i am doing my homework on this subject, when i put the boiler together i will have a good idea if the boiler took succesfully, if i have any doubt about the servicability i will not fire up the boiler, whilst i solder the boiler together im been supervised by my brother-in-law who is a professional gas fitter whose life revolves around solder jointing, he assures me he will keep a close eye on me, then if the boiler goes well ill pressure test to 100lbs psi, i have the proper testing guidelines around this subject and im very gratefull to you for showing your conserns,,thanks,,
billj
|
|
|
hi all
Jan 25, 2006 20:27:08 GMT
Post by the_viffer on Jan 25, 2006 20:27:08 GMT
Brian's point was a soft soldered boiler may pass a cold hydraulic test but be lethal hot.
Keith Wilson tells the story of having an 8" pressure gauge soft soldered in a bush on a boiler under test let go and land in his roof.
The only possible use of soft solder in a boiler is as a caulk.
I'm one of the bigger cowboys/experimenters but I'd also strongly suggest you do some calculations on the safe working pressure (allow 8x or 10x safety factor) before you build. Preferably get them checked.
When I was lad (and Lad), in the 70s, I worked in a lab where we investigated someone killed by a small pressure vessel exploding. In fact it was beer keg put on a bonfire. I can see now all too clearly some of the scenes.
|
|
billj pump
Active Member
yourallabunchofgreatguys
Posts: 30
|
hi all
Jan 25, 2006 20:37:05 GMT
Post by billj pump on Jan 25, 2006 20:37:05 GMT
ok, you have convinced me, im wondering if this is a little out of my depth now, i have been offered to have the soldering done for me by a qualified coppersmith, but me been me turned down the offer at the time and said that id have a bash at it by myself, i think ill take the offer up and let him do the job,,saying that, i would feel safer knowing it was done properly,,thanks for all the advice,
billj
|
|
|
hi all
Jan 25, 2006 21:01:11 GMT
Post by the_viffer on Jan 25, 2006 21:01:11 GMT
ok, you have convinced me, im wondering if this is a little out of my depth now, i have been offered to have the soldering done for me by a qualified coppersmith, but me been me turned down the offer at the time and said that id have a bash at it by myself, i think ill take the offer up and let him do the job,,saying that, i would feel safer knowing it was done properly,,thanks for all the advice, billj No. Solder it up yourself but use silver solder and hydraulically test it.
|
|
|
hi all
Jan 25, 2006 22:09:45 GMT
Post by alanstepney on Jan 25, 2006 22:09:45 GMT
As everyone has said, silver solder is the only way to go.
It isnt complicated, but there are a few "rules" to get it to work OK. There is plenty of information available, but do take the time to read a book or two before starting.
As for the actual boiler design, Model Boilers & Boilermaking, By K N Harris, is a good place to start.
|
|
|
hi all
Jan 25, 2006 22:13:10 GMT
Post by the_viffer on Jan 25, 2006 22:13:10 GMT
I deduce none of you are my wife.
In which case, Waggy, cheers! Thanks for the beer. My round.
|
|
billj pump
Active Member
yourallabunchofgreatguys
Posts: 30
|
hi all
Jan 26, 2006 16:13:20 GMT
Post by billj pump on Jan 26, 2006 16:13:20 GMT
ive just had a word with the coppersmith, and he is going to braze the boiler up for me and give me a test certificate, all for £30 a real gentleman! ill have to throw him a few extra quid. my next thought is how long the boiler is to be, obviously the longer the more steam volume but this also means more fuel to use, for a 60mm diam boiler what length would be a feasible size? i was thinking around 8 inches, but the copper pipe is 320mm long and would be ideal for an old style loco, im going to have to decide what to do before i go chopping this pipe to length!, decisions,,decisions,ughh!,,
|
|
|
hi all
Jan 26, 2006 16:34:11 GMT
Post by the_viffer on Jan 26, 2006 16:34:11 GMT
Get him to flange the end plates so they fit inside the tube before brazing up. You need bronze or gm bushes for all the fittings. You might well need a longitudinal stay or two.
I'm selling a boiler on ebay (c'mon guys a new boiler with fittings and the biddings at GBP31? [It is number 6030545587 if anyone fancies it]) which is 70mm diameter is 145mm long which might give you an idea on typical lengths.
The best length depends a bit on how you are going to fire the boiler. A simple pot boiler is not going to be a great steam raiser but you can make it as long as you like. You can make it more effective by putting a external water tubes underneath. You could put a centre flue in it optionally with cross tubes like the one I'm selling.
I really think you'd be better off reading a bit about boilers and making a proper design first. K N Harris's book is good.
|
|
billj pump
Active Member
yourallabunchofgreatguys
Posts: 30
|
hi all
Jan 26, 2006 16:59:29 GMT
Post by billj pump on Jan 26, 2006 16:59:29 GMT
hi viffer, i was looking at your boiler on ebay yesterday and its a fantastic item, im sure the final price will raise considerably higher though, but theres still a few days left to run yet, i know from experience that there is a lot of last minute bidders out there. i am doing all the donkey work, this chap is just going to braze the boiler for me, i have planned on sinking the end walls into the boiler anyway but thanks for the advice about the bronze/gm bushes. i am still doing my homework though and reading about boiler making, theres a book on ebay im going to buy on the subject, im not going to rush into this project and been an ex military man i tend to do a lot of planning before hand no matter what i do, thanks.
|
|