CE Marking on Boilers

[Tony K]

The CE mark is a foggy area for me. The more I hear of it, the more confused I get.

• Does it mean that a body has inspected some of the work and said this man produces work to our standard and therefore can mark his stuff? If yes - how often do they do it?
  
• Does it mean each CE marked boiler has been inspected by a body?
  
• Does it mean a body has inspected boilers at random?
  
• Does it mean a body has inspected the design of each boiler?
• What exactly does it mean?
  
• Is it ACTUALLY worth anything?
  
• How often does a body visit a boiler manufacturer?
  
• Is it just a sham, like the BS9750 quality assurance system, where nerds in a quango make loads-a-money from overseeing a near-worthless system that everyone has to use in order to sell stuff?

Many have tried to tell me what they THINK it is. Does anyone out there REALLY know please?

[ayesha2]

hi tonytrans

look on the posting that started this.

it is very confusing, all your questions are extermly valid in relation to the other thread.

it is all very slow because there are a few who may not wish for it to go any further and try to throw people off by pushing thread off on a tangent with other stuff, effectivly destroying the thread and nothing is done to monitor the few boilers that are suspect.

when you make another boiler do you have to take some of the unfinished parts for inspection to your club inspector.

if its not right does he tell you or anyone else for that matter it would be better if it was done a little better rebrazed

when he is satisfied, you then finish boiler i.e fire box to outer wrapper,backhead etc etc.

said inspector then gives hydraulic test leaves for so long at double pressure etc etc

While all this is going on does he not have a witness looking on
then your certificate is signed by him and witness. as i don,t have one could to tell me please if this is so


What does the professional have ____ no one ____

1.106 people want to know though off course if in all fairness you could cut that down to half or twothirds??

yours tony

[marco]

Hi tonytrans
The short answer is in your first Question. if you produce a boilers Up to 7 BAR Working Pressure.
Only need to be pressure test and you can self certified CE Stamp.
If you build a boiler to work more than 7 BAR Working pressure, then you need to be certified by a independent body PVD PRESSURE VESSELS DIRECTIVE 23/97 who give you a number to put next to the CE marking.

Regards Marco

[Tony K]

Jul 13, 2009 21:18:25 GMT marco said:

If you build a boiler to work more than 7 BAR Working pressure, then you need to be certified by a independent body PVD PRESSURE VESSELS DIRECTIVE 23/97 who give you a number to put next to the CE marking. Regards Marco

• What does this certification require then?
  
• What is an independent body?
  
• What are the answers to my other questions? Please say it is not as my final bullet point!

I found this particularly vague. Presumably from a "body" sucking off it all.

Ayesha2, I started this as a separate subject so the answers would be confined to CE marking. I did consider posting it in "General Chat" since the downside of having separate sections appears to be that very few people read them.

[ettingtonliam]

Marco
Do you mean that anybody (myself, for example) could build a boiler with, say, 6,5bar working pressure (90psi or thereabouts), hydraulic test it, apply a CE stamp and legally sell it? Are the CE stamps an official stamp, issued by an inspecting body for use, or are they available for purchase like a set of number stamps, in which case, what is the point of the CE stamp.?
From what you are saying, if I understand you correctly, it isn't the CE stamp on its own which is important, its having the number next to it, because the number shows that an independent body has been involved in the process. How does a third party know if the number is a legitimate one, or a 'made up' one? Does each 'independent body' have its own sequence of numbers?
No wonder I've given up making anything involving a boiler.

Richard

[russell]

Yes, you can build a boiler, test it, and CE mark it yourself provided it is greater than 2 litres capacity and the product of working pressure x volume is less than or equal to 50 Bar.litres (I don't know where Marco gets his 7 litres from, perhaps he could explain?).

If you do CE mark it yourself you have to supply a certificate of conformity and you must hold a technical file available. Oh yes, if you get it wrong the penalties can be severe!

If it is over 50 Bar.litres the control must be done by a "Notified Body", not just an independent body. Notified bodies for the directive 97/23/CE include people like BSI and Veritas.

Russell.

[havoc]

Yes, you can build a boiler, test it, and CE mark it yourself

I tought you had to be "a commercial entity", probably you'll need a VAT number or so.

Are the CE stamps an official stamp, issued by an inspecting body for use, or are they available for purchase like a set of number stamps, in which case, what is the point of the CE stamp.?

You can even make the stamp yourself but it has to comply with the typography (another standard). It is the act of stamping it that has implications, not where the stamp comes from.

Putting the CE mark on anything means that you, the signer of the declaration of conformity, takes the resposability that the marked piece of equipment complies with the relevant standards, that you have a technical file available and that you are liable in case of non-conformance.

From what you are saying, if I understand you correctly, it isn't the CE stamp on its own which is important, its having the number next to it, because the number shows that an independent body has been involved in the process.

No exactly. If the boiler falls into the category where a notified body has to check the boiler, then the number from the notified body has to be present. If it falls into the category where self-certification is done, then the CE mark in itself is enough.

You can check that those numbers are "valid" by requesting the technical file. This should provide a link the numbers, the notified body and the test report/result.

[Tony K]

So nobody can answer my questions then?

[ayesha2]

Hi tonytrans

ulster has an excellent answer in the post you came from

yours tony

[marco]

Russel

if you read my coment I said 7 BAR Working pressure no 7 Litres. and yes the number is to verified if is legal.

[Tony K]

Jul 14, 2009 22:07:12 GMT ayesha2 said:

Hi tonytrans
ulster has an excellent answer in the post you came from. yours tony

Regret, I have to point out he has not. Nobody has answered my questions which are fundamental to the operation of CE marking of boilers.
I started this thread to try to find out how the CE system ACTUALLY works. So far nobody appears to know, or is willing to say. I am having difficulty in seeing how a valuable discussion can take place if nobody REALLY knows how the CE system works.
Can someone enlighten me? A reminder of the questions....

• Does it mean that a body has inspected some of the work and said this man produces work to our standard and therefore can mark his stuff? If yes - how often do they do it?
  
• Does it mean each CE marked boiler has been inspected by a body?
  
• Does it mean a body has inspected boilers at random?
  
• Does it mean a body has inspected the design of each boiler?
• What exactly does it mean?
  
• Is it ACTUALLY worth anything?
  
• How often does a body visit a boiler manufacturer?
  
• Is it just a sham, like the BS9750 quality assurance system, where nerds in a quango make loads-a-money from overseeing a near-worthless system that everyone has to use in order to sell stuff?

[Deleted]

Tony

I was not attempting to answer your detailed questions because, quite frankly, I don't know. I have not really had contact with anyone involved since the early days when a group of boilermakers had selected a 'notified body', the representatives of which were just beginning to visit their facilities. It would be useful to get one of the professionals to bring us all up to date with what has been going on. The problem is that they are probably too busy making boilers to have time to stop and talk to us!

Having had, in my own profession to be on the receiving end of audits against British, European and American quality assurance systems relating to highly safety critical products, I can appreciate your scepticism. This was my point about the DTI's reluctance to get involved over alleged breaches of the regulations. Why bother? Back to caveat emptor (and the small claims court)!

[Chris Kelland]

Hi Tony,

I for one can't answer your question, however I would be inclined to ask a boiler maker, for example, someone who is a member of the 'Association of Professional Copper Boiler Makers'. I should say, of course and/or steel boilers.

Sorry, though I wil try to find out as I am also interested.

Chris.

[Chris Kelland]

Hi,

Here is a good place to start,


www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/sectors/sustainability/regulations/cemark/page11646.html


Chris.

[kwil]

Try looking at CuPalloys.com site under Home>Model Engineering>Live Steam Models>What the Professionals Say

This shows quite clearly that they take their procedures, construction, testing and inspection very seriously and take the proper precautions including materials testing, what more could you ask?

[havoc]

From previous messages in this and other threads:

- NO. Only boilers above 50 liters*bar are tested by a notified body. However if the boiler maker needs to be certified for welding (like for steel boilers) then the inspection system for that issue is in force. Remark that the notified body doesn't qualify the boiler maker, only the boiler itself.
- NO. See above, very small boilers don't need to be marked at all, others can be self tested.
- NO. If you have a boiler that needs to be tested then each one is tested.
- don't know this one I'm afraid.
- it means the boiler in question complies with all relevant technical standards. To prove this is comes with a certificate of compliance that lists the standards and has a technical file that provides more detail about this. It also means you know who is responsible in case of non-compliance ic the signee of the certificate. It does not mean that the boiler will be a master piece of design or a work of art in itself and that you will want to put it on your mantelpiece and drool over it.
- Depends on how trusting you are. As the one signing the certificate is liable for criminal charges I feel it has certain value. In a way he is putting his head on the block in case the certificate was unjust. But it isn't an absolute either because it isn't something you can easily verify yourself. But as each boiler will be inspected/tested again at the club any flukes will be fast found. If you don't trust anything unless all documents are signed with blood in triplicate or just don't trust documents at all then it probably means nothing to you.
- Unless a boiler maker has set himself up for self-certification of boilers that otherwise need to go to a notified body they don't. They provide the service of testing boilers to a specific standard. They will probably also provide guidance as to which standards to use etc. But they do not certify a maker, only a product.
- Again this depends on how trusting you are. Whatever system you set up there is always the possibility to cheat. I don't think it is worthless as it provides a minimal technical standard. The only problem I see in it is that -in case of model boilers- we are working with a derogation that is filled in by each country. So in our case a CE mark can have a different meaning depending on where it was marked: the opposite from what is intented.

[alanstepney]

Perhaps a bigger concern to add to the list that Tonytrans posted above, is, what is the worth of a CE mark if there is no enforcement of it?
After all, any rule is worthless if breaking it doesnt attract any penalty.

[Deleted]

My point exactly. We seem to be back to where we were before all this started - reliant on a regular pressure test regime and good visual inspection. Cosmetic appearance is one thing - many a sin has been hidden under the cladding and always will be. Leaks, distortion and disintegrating bushes/fittings are what matter and a good club boiler inspector will be alert to these things. Make sure that the right people are appointed and value them.

[russell]

Havoc,
Good clear reply. I would just like to add that small boilers (less than 2 litres) not only needn't be CE marked but it is illegal so to do.

Ayesha2,
I presume your concern is for an Ayesha II boiler. Have you checked its capacity? I would have thought from a quick look that it is less than 2 litres and thus should not be CE marked.

Marco,
Sorry I meant to say 7 bar. As a professional boiler maker perhaps you can explain where you get this figure? Others seem to agree that the limit for self testing/CE marking is 50 bar.litres.

Regards,
Russell.

[havoc]

Perhaps a bigger concern to add to the list that Tonytrans posted above, is, what is the worth of a CE mark if there is no enforcement of it?
After all, any rule is worthless if breaking it doesnt attract any penalty.

Since you brought up 3 cases that are going to court I think it is reasonable to assume there is enforcement. I think what you mean is that there is no "police force" going around to check all boilers on an ongoing regime. Actually there is with the club boiler inspections. The question is what happens if boilers failing are found?

On the other hand it is impossible to prove a negative. Maybe the system works and there is nothing to enforce?