Briggs boilers

[mike21]

I am looking at alternative boiler designs for a Thomas2 loco and am seriously considering a Briggs boiler as described in the Australian Boiler Code Part 2.
It seems the design has a lot going for it both in terms of simplicity and presumably of lower price than traditional loco boilers.
I realize that there may be more radiated heat from the firebox area but that could also be beneficial in our climate.
Has anyone experience in building and operating these boilers and any problems with certification? I would also be looking for a suitable manufacturer who has had some experience building such boilers.
Mike

[alanstepney]

Mr Briggs was an architect and the inventor of the "crash bar" fitted to all public building so people could escape in case of fire.
The money he made enabled him to buy a summer house in Bognor Regis, (West Sussex).
He then set up a railway along Bognor sea front to give his son something to do between university & work.
Later that railway was moved to the garden of his house.
At some time the loco needed a new boiler and Mr Briggs decided to design one.
That was the first Briggs boiler.

Upon his death (or some time afterwards) the loco and track was sold to Chichester Model Engineers, and at one time, I was the regular driver.
10 1/4" gauge, it is called "Winnie", and still runs at Chichester.

Before my time there, the boiler had been replaced, but I gather the old "Briggs "boiler worked well, provided plenty of steam and had no particular faults. However, it was replaced by a conventional boiler, so I cant claim any experience with the Briggs.

They have never been a popular design, although I dont know why. Perhaps the innate conservatism of people or perhaps the fact that any boiler is a major task & cost that going the conventional route is a safer option.

[Shawki Shlemon]

Many of these boilers are built here in Australia for traction engines and 7.25" gauge locomotives , they are simple and work well however in my opinion their efficiency is not as good as loco type boiler .

[steam4ian]

Mr Briggs was only following the "Leader"; leaving the question, did he get bullied into it?

The Briggs design may become used more frequently with the development of duplex steel boilers.

Regards
Ian

[alanstepney]

Ian, as you may know, I am vary wary about duplex boilers, but will leave that for another thread.

The original Briggs boiler pre-dated Leader, and Bullied's role as CME was far in the future.

[Boadicea]

Maybe you have seen this and this and this.

Not many people seem to have good things to say about this kind of boiler. The only plus point seems to be simplicity. I am not clever enough to comment about the efficiency, but the comments about stayed boilers having greater heating surface area seem to hold water. Pun intended.

[mike21]

Thanks to everyone for the information in your replies. I have now read the Australian Steel boiler Code and apart from being impressed with its content am more convinced that a Briggs boiler is my best course of manufacture. I have noticed that when firing 71/4" gauge all steel loco boilers the rate of heat transfer into the water space is markedly lower than similar copper boilers. I haven't calculated the difference but suspect that with a correctly designed and constructed copper water wall which could extend partially around the front and rear firebox wall as well as both sides together with copper fire tubes could produce around the same steaming rate or more than an all steel boiler. After all I believe the Australians and Americans have used these for a number of years with little problem. Some adverse comments I have heard have been from traditionalists who couldn't see past a locomotive style boiler and were even sarcastic regarding marine type boilers such as "Sweet Pea" types. My only problem may be the cost of having the design approved by the insurance company for Southern Federation overcoming any advantage over an existing loco boiler. I still haven't been able to find anyone who has owned and run a Briggs boiler prepared to talk about their experiences.
Mike Duncan

[Shawki Shlemon]

I have never had one but we had / have some in the club and I am a boiler inspector and certified a few of them over time and have nothing to complain about . If steel boilers are looked after , there is no problems with them . I myself built only copper boilers but one has to consider other options and keep open mind .

[ianholder]

I built a 7 1/4. gauge Hunslet tank, Roger Marsh 4" scale, in the early 1980's. At about this time I found out about the Australian boiler code and the Briggs Boiler, and as it was a cheap option compared to a copper boiler I made one. The barrel was 8"dia by 1/4" steel, tubeplates and crown 1/2" certified boiler plate. 12 copper tubes 3/4" dia were expanded in to the tubeplates. The firebox was a welded up box lined with 1" thick layer of fire cement that the boiler sat in. There was no firebox coil round the walls, so the heating surface was the tubeplate, the crown and the fire tubes. This boiler steamed very well and I never ran out of steam. The backhead gets hotter than a conventional boiler but a bit of insulation behind a cladding sheet was a help. I wrote this up at the time in the 7 1/4 magazine. It ran for many years very successfully with this boiler, and I am aware of two others, a 7 1/4" Romulus and a 5"Pansy.
It does now have a conventional copper boiler, but only because a friend was building a Romulus and in talking about this I realised that a Romulus boiler would fit in to a Hunslet chassis without alteration, and I could now afford it, so we built a pair of them. Without this prompt to change it would still be running with the Briggs boiler.
One thing that I noticed was that there was much less variation in steaming which I put down to the radiation from the walls of the firebox.

[gardener69]

My experance with briggs boilers is they are not as good as a normal steel boiler, there is alot less heating surface. most people i know have gone back to a normal boiler whether steel or copper when they can.

[ausdan]

Have seen a few Briggs at our club in Adelaide, Aus.

They seem fine in the larger scale, where the firbox is on top of the frames, efficiency doesn't really matter in model form, who cares if you waste too much energy , there plenty of water and coal and time at most clubs,
They all steam well, and get mighty hot on the bulkhead, some firebricks are needed for sure, have seen one of the engines with a red hot bulkhead from the heat

Seen a couple where the back was able to be recut and replaced, got another 8 yrs out of boiler.

not ideal for narrow framed locos where the boiler is nested in between, in my opinion.

[mike21]

I've been busy in the workshop and running my loco at various clubs and was pleasantly suprised at the new posts since my last visit. I am encouraged by the comments and have decided to go the Briggs route and I am also fabricating the cylinders from steel with cast iron inserts. I have also recently read a lot of information regarding duplex steel boilers. Why is all the experimentation and specification on boilers coming from Australia? I am keenly watching the progress of the New Zealand duplex boiler asit seems to offer all the advantages of copper boilers with the cost of steel boilers.
In these economically depressing times this may be the way forward.

[Jim]

Mike I have a Briggs boiler in my 3" Burrell and it steams without any problems at all.
I did the design to the AMBSC Steel Boiler Code then after our club boiler inspector had approved it passed the drawings on to a certified welder who built the boiler.
The only problem I have found is that you need to take care of the refractory board/brick lining that you use in the fire box as it is easily damaged by careless use of fire irons. When I replaced the lining a couple of years back I used .5" thick tiles used for Pizza Ovens purchased from a BBQ and fireplace store.
On the plus side access the firebox and tubes is very straight forward as the fire hole side of the fire box is a separate component held with six studs.

Jim

[ianholder]

Mike, I dont think you will be disapointed with a Briggs boiler, a Thomas 2 boiler is considerably bigger than a Hunslet one and should work ok. Looking at some of the pictures of other Briggs boilers they seem to weld the firebox to the barrel, you would have to do this with a traction engine, but it is not necessary with a loco. I bolted the firebox to the frames and the barrel laid in it with a strap over the top to stop it moving. The firebox lining was a fire cement that was mixed with water and cast in place with a wooden former and was about 1" thick, sorry I can't remember what it was called it was a long time ago and probably came from work. It was not damaged by fireirons, when it was finally dismantled it needed a hammer and chisel to remove it. I like the idea of pizza oven linings,though.
Just to make things clearer, my boiler did not have a copper tube coil in the firebox. It had copper firetubes that were expanded in the tube plates, but if you go down that route don't be heavy handed with the expander its too easy to sever the tube.

[steam4ian]

G'day all

The fire box lining could be "cement fondu" which is a castable refactory. I recently bought some a potters supply house but haven't used it yet.

I know it is strong because years ago I made the fire bricks for the arch of a 12" to 1' loco usuing the same product. They worked for years. It was used in the steel industry for furnace and ladle repairs. just mix with water, apply or cast then dry out.

Regards
Ian

[ausdan]

Aug 25, 2011 10:53:10 GMT mike21 said:

read a lot of information regarding duplex steel boilers. Why is all the experimentation and specification on boilers coming from Australia? I am keenly watching the progress of the New Zealand duplex boiler asit seems to offer all the advantages of copper boilers with the cost of steel boilers.
In these economically depressing times this may be the way forward.

IMO the duplex boiler is just another option, be it copper, steel, duplex they all have there advantages, the briggs design you probably end up with cheapest path, maintained properly, should see a easy 12yr plus.
Design wise, I think the Aussie's where able to formulate all the good ground work that the English model makers had done, dealing with only one continent over here and were able to get a approved publish design in copper, in the later years with a large proportion of model engineering discovering the larger 7.25 gauge,
THe steel Briggs design was made to cut cost and ease of building, which hit a good balance, as there are many running in Aus based on this....fast forward 30yr they designed a special duplex steel for the space program, that a few thought would solve the pit falls of standard stainless in heat applications alot of discussion and money and design work and workable solution has arrived (though at this stage its a considerable cost$$$).

Reading alot of forums from Europe and US they all seem to be at logger heads on whats right, whats best and whats not..then having to have some set of rules/guidlines comply in every state/counrty it looks like a impossible ask.
Our designs probably are not perfect, but they work, its all approved, the safety design factors and if it is followed correctly you end up with a sound good working boiler...approved by every associated club in Aus/NZ are backed by goverment ;D

[mike21]

I am very encouraged by the correspondence on
these topics.
The advice gratefully received has given me hope that my decision is the correct one and I have designed my boiler in Autodesk Inventor but after talking to a member of the Lancaster and Morecambe society at their open day earlier this year on the subject of fluidized bed fireboxes it seems the Briggs design might easily incorporate this technology with benefit so I am also pursuing this idea over the winter before construction next year.

[suctionhose]

Sounds like your mind is made up.

I have built and run 5 engines with Briggs boilers, the first in 1983.

They suit prototypes having generous boiler sizes and lower steaming demands as is often the case with TE's and the narrow gauge.

They aren't really viable under 6"OD as the plate thicknesses just take up all the room. Nor are they viable for long skinny boilers or standard gauge narrow firebox types.

Refractory maintenance is a nuisance depending on how hard the engine works. Make it easy to get the boiler off for this. Also vital to have circulation tubes to wet the crown and a means to properly vent the boiler during storage.

Good luck!

My first Briggs was 30 years ago (it's still going) and I've been an advocate of them, if used appropriately, ever since. But with steel full loco types and Duplex's approved in Aust now I'd never make another one!