61962
Seasoned Member
Posts: 129
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Post by 61962 on Mar 13, 2014 23:24:33 GMT
There were a lot of variations of the group standard tenders. The first ones had a lot of GCR and NER in them. Gresley didn't like this flared top version, called them hearses, so they were redesigned without the flares. The low fronted version first attached to the K3s and J39s and later to the early V2s and B1s were of riveted construction but the private builders Robert Stephenson and Armstrong Whitworth built them all welded. The Armstrong ones had no angle at the outer edge of the sole plate, and all had fully flush sides unlike the riveted tenders that had an overlap in the top side sheets. When built new for the B1s the front coal plate was higher and a short side cut out at the front was introduced. The last ten B1 tenders had a change to the frames at the front and this went along with narrower front footsteps. This design carried on in the construction of the K1 tenders. The V2s had another variation with the tender front redesigned to look like the pacific tenders with a door into the coal space, cupboards in the lower part of the front and a shelf above. Along with other variation such as steam or vacuum brake and the omission of the water scoop on some, single or twin vacuum reservoirs on the top of the water space or a single tank mounted under the rear, water treatment apparatus etc, it was almost a case of no two were alike! The tender fitted to many J39s and J38s, the K4s (61994 still has one but now modified to increase the water capacity) and I think the V4 was the 3500 gallon version which had the same underframe but a shorter tank.
Finally during the mid 50s the back coal plate was moved forward and increased in height, presumably to remove the flat space at the back and remove the need for fireman to go into the tender to pull down the last part of the coal.
Certainly if you are modelling the LNER group standard tender you need to check which version and when you are modelling it.
As for wheels the early flared top tenders certainly had spokes, but afterwards disc wheels were standard, but there might well have been the odd one that got spoked wheels at some time. I'm sure I've seen a picture of a GS tender with one spoked wheel set!
Eddie
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Post by simon6200 on Mar 19, 2014 1:06:40 GMT
Hello all. I have only recently discovered this forum. I have been building a Springbok since 2007. It is my first build of anything, so I have learned everything along the way by doing it. I am now up to cladding the boiler. Martin Evans glossed over this bit. Does anyone have any advice or pictures of the process on this engine? Should it be done as one piece or two or more? Materials brass or perhaps stainless? It won't be difficult to get someone to roll it for me.
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 19, 2014 1:33:35 GMT
hi simon, well done with your B1 - sounds like steam up very soon! ive always used steel plate for boiler cleading as takes paint better. for your B1 try and make it all out of one piece. get it rolled then cut slots either side then flatten out to fit the firebox. lots of people use brass shimstock but ive never used brass for boiler cleading. however its up to you what you use. get some ceramic fibre sheet from one of the ME suppliers to put underneath the cleading as cladding. rolling boiler cleading contact your local club as they will probably have a set of rollers long enough. it is one of the few but simple jobs outside the usual amateur home workshop. cheers, julian
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2014 2:37:14 GMT
Hello SIMON and welcome indeed !!---------- Try making templates out of thin card first before actually committing to cutting any metal...Make all the mistakes you want and it won't cost you more than some extra card ( or Cornflakes LoL !!)......Steel or Brass are the two "traditional" materials used...Stainless is expensive and awkward to paint well........Remember to position any dummy washout plugs, mudhole covers etc. and the handrails as you go...The initial "pull-down" might be difficult so make up a form of tourniquet such that you can get the cladding to cover the insulation layer in a controlled manner.... Allow some overlap at each end so the boiler bands have something to grip onto....This might be useful}------- www.wythallsteamrail.com/DennisHerbert1.html --------- -------------
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Post by KennLindeman on Mar 20, 2014 7:45:15 GMT
For those of you who have a facebook account. There are two links for the two remaining B1's with good photos. There are photos of the rebuilding of one of the loco's as well LNER B1 61306 Mayflower 61264 B1LT
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Post by simon6200 on Mar 20, 2014 8:42:09 GMT
Thanks for the replies. I made a cardboard template today and am now feeling more confident. I have been advised to use brass because it is easy to soft solder washout plugs, backing pads for handrails, etc.. The experienced members at my club don't always use lagging, arguing that air is a good insulator, and that lagging can often get wet and stay wet.
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Post by ejparrott on Mar 20, 2014 19:07:18 GMT
Hi Simon,
Plenty of experienced members here too who will tell you to use steel and it's not a problem for fitting washout plugs, and also to use insulation under the cleading - you'll get as many different views as people you ask!
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Post by KennLindeman on Mar 27, 2014 10:45:31 GMT
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Post by KennLindeman on Aug 3, 2014 6:07:19 GMT
So it's a good winter morning and I have decided it's time to redraw the tender drawings in metric. The drawings I have are very poor quality. So I pulled out my scanned copies of the Model Engineer only to discover I don't have the version with the tender drawing. I spend many a night neatly scanning in the pages as I did not want to damage the 50 year old magazines and wanted to make notes on the pages, as well as doing the metric conversion on these pages and not on the drawings. Does anybody know which issue had the tender side frame drawings.
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Post by banksy512 on Mar 7, 2016 12:57:57 GMT
Hi All
I have been drawing the Martin Evans B1 in 3d CAD and I have noticed that the tender axleboxes don't appear to have the oil hole detailed on the drawing. Noting that the tender spring sits right above I was wondering what solution people who have built it came up with for this?
I have scanned through this thread and it does not seem to have came up. I am curious if the ME articles describing the loco have a solution as I do not have access to these articles
Regards Banksy
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Post by KennLindeman on Mar 7, 2016 13:21:38 GMT
Martin Evans does not talk about the oil holes in ME. If you want a copy of the ME articles drop me PM and I can send them to you. What program are you using to do you cad model
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miken
Part of the e-furniture
Posts: 480
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Post by miken on Mar 7, 2016 21:24:28 GMT
Hi Simon, Plenty of experienced members here too who will tell you to use steel and it's not a problem for fitting washout plugs, and also to use insulation under the cleading - you'll get as many different views as people you ask! Heres my tip for B1 builders. When I built my B1 many years ago I was a bit short of cash towards the end and I clad the boiler with some galvanized steel that I had. It seemed like a good idea at the time. On completion I steamed it up. As it heated up, the boiler expanded and grew in length, but the lagging didn't. A horrible gap appeared at the smoke box end. I couldn't live with it like that so i had to redo it all in brass. No more problems. Also regarding lagging. The last 4 locos ive built, I have used balsa wood cut into narrow strips. Paper masking tape around each end of the barrel and glue the wood to it. Any lumps and bumps in the wood can be rectified with coarse sandpaper. When the lagging is fitted it all feels nice and solid. Mike
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Post by Oily Rag on Mar 7, 2016 21:35:17 GMT
Hi All I have been drawing the Martin Evans B1 in 3d CAD and I have noticed that the tender axleboxes don't appear to have the oil hole detailed on the drawing. Noting that the tender spring sits right above I was wondering what solution people who have built it came up with for this? I have scanned through this thread and it does not seem to have came up. I am curious if the ME articles describing the loco have a solution as I do not have access to these articles Regards Banksy Just to embarrass Banksy (Chris), he can fire and drive a few full size locos and has done much grunt work on the track and on the steam locos at www.facebook.com/RosewoodRailwayand at other railways in past years I some times get a chance to fire (still rough am I on the banjo) for him on some running days. and Chris is now setting up his new home and workshop to sate his creative desires for making metal items, such as 5" puffers starting with a B1 as I was given some B1 castings and then I passed them onto Banksy as I was committed to my current loco and the QR C17#253 next.
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j502
Member
Posts: 1
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Post by j502 on Feb 24, 2017 5:01:17 GMT
Hi All, I am in the process of assisting a friend, time his 5" gauge Springbok (Martin Evan's design). In the Model Engineer that covers Springbok and under the section pertaining to machining the cylinders, there is a bit of pre-amble where he specs the full forward valve travel at 11/16". With the length of the return crank and the depth of the expansion link, 11/16" valve travel cannot be achieved. I can achieve 7/16" which is giving about a 65% cut-off. Would anyone know the correct full gear valve travel for Springbok. Thanks and regards Robin
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Post by KennLindeman on Apr 3, 2017 18:03:07 GMT
Hi All I am busy machining wheels for my B1 and was wondering if the taper on the tread of the wheels should be on all the wheels ie driving, bogie and tender or only on the driving wheels Thanks Kenn
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2017 18:40:42 GMT
Hi Kenn
The taper should be on all of the wheels, many if not most will follow the GL5 profile which IIRC is a 3 degree taper. I'm on my phone so can't easily give a link but if you google GL5 wheel profile you should find it easy enough...
Cheers
Pete
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Apr 3, 2017 21:12:06 GMT
Hi Kenn,
First check the profile of your passenger trolley wheelsets at your club. They will wear the railheads far more than a loco. It is a complicated subject that has been discussed on here at great length.
I have just seen Robin's post of 24th Feb. I am not aware of any problems with Martin Evans' valve gear for Springbok, though it was one of his very early designs. I could drive Alan Killick's 5"g B1 on the SMLS 'notched up' almost to middle gear. Whether Alan built the valve gear to the drawings I dont know.
I have re-designed the smokebox draughting for the Martin Evans 5"g B1 (Springbok) and is available to anyone who wants a copy.
Cheers, Julian
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Post by KennLindeman on Apr 4, 2017 17:14:48 GMT
Hi Had a look at GL 5 website and there wheel width is 1/2 compared to Martin Evans drawings specifying 9/16 which is quite a difference
Julian I would like a copy of the drawing with the changes you have made to the smokebox
Thanks Kenn
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 18:11:10 GMT
Hi Had a look at GL 5 website and there wheel width is 1/2 compared to Martin Evans drawings specifying 9/16 which is quite a difference Julian I would like a copy of the drawing with the changes you have made to the smokebox Thanks Kenn no need to follow the drawing to the letter, just use it for the profile...keep the width at 9/16.. Pete
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Post by John Baguley on Apr 4, 2017 21:17:02 GMT
Does anyone know what happened to Bob (Springbok)? He seemed to just disappear. He was a regular poster on the Model Engineer forum as well but disappeared from that.
John
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