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Livery
Mar 8, 2012 18:15:30 GMT
Post by Andy Clark on Mar 8, 2012 18:15:30 GMT
Does anyone have any idea of the colour scheme for the inside of the frames of the Prairie? I would welcome any links to relevant publications.
Thanks
Andy
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Livery
Mar 8, 2012 21:13:11 GMT
Post by Laurie_B on Mar 8, 2012 21:13:11 GMT
Hi Andy,
Just had a look at the paint chart in Jim Russell's book "A Pictorial Record of Great Western Engines" and the colour given for the inside of the frames is china red,same as for the buffer beams.
At the moment I'm building up the pony truck -and Trevor Shortland's/Reeves' drawing T8 tells us that: "unless stated otherwise all parts (of the pony truck) to be painted 'Red' except machine faces".
I'm not sure that is correct,methinks it should be painted black.Could someone confirm which is correct?
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Livery
Mar 8, 2012 21:29:57 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2012 21:29:57 GMT
Russell is wrong. The inside frame colour for Great Western engines was Venetian red - China red was used only on the buffer beams.
Venetian red was more of a brown colour, and was probably a mixture of red lead and varnish (i.e. cheap!). It was used at Swindon right up to the end of steam. Alas many engines in preservation have the inside frames painted incorrectly in signal red.
If you want to see Venetian red, look at any of the GW engines on the Severn Valley, or some (but not all) of those at Didcot. The 6880 project website has pictures of the frames being painted correctly, to give you some idea of the colour.
Red was only used from the back of the cylinders to the front of the firebox. Everything else between the frames, including bogies and pony trucks, was painted black. It's surprising how many model engineers think everything inside was red.
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Livery
Mar 9, 2012 10:48:51 GMT
Post by Laurie_B on Mar 9, 2012 10:48:51 GMT
That's very interesting.Russell,in his book reproduces Swindon diagram No.97520 "Method of Painting Great Western Locomotives";there being no mention at all of Venetian Red. Could this be an idea that has evolved in the BR (WR)/preservationist eras?
Thanks also for clarifying the point over the colour of the pony truck.Somehow I thought the instructions on sheet T8 didn't seem right.
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Livery
Mar 9, 2012 13:25:14 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2012 13:25:14 GMT
The painting diagrams in Russell's two volumes are curious! The one in volume 1 is dated 1932, and yet it covers the years up to 1947. The one in volume 2 is revision 'A' and is dated 1954, but it still only covers the years up to 1947. Quite why anyone would want to update what had by 1954 become a historical document, is hard to imagine. My judgement on the frame colour is based on the fact that during the 1970's I worked on the restoration of a number of full size ex-GW locos, which were still in as-withdrawn condition as regards paintwork. In every case, the inside frame colour was Venetian red. I also remember seeing a copy of the 1947 painting specification that was issued to contractors building the 9400 class, and this clearly stated Venetian red for the inside frames. It's possible that China red was used at one time for the inside frames, but as red pigments were expensive before synthetic paints came along, a cheaper alternative was sought. If this is so, I'm unable to say when the change took place. This website provides some useful (and I believe fairly accurate) information: www.swindonworks.co.uk/Prototypeinformation.htm
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Livery
Mar 9, 2012 14:01:04 GMT
Post by Laurie_B on Mar 9, 2012 14:01:04 GMT
Thanks for the very interesting website link. Just to add a little more to the discussion,I've just been looking at 'Great Western Way' (a Historical Model Railway Society publication),where the diagram previously mentioned,dated 1954 is again reproduced.
However,the section on liveries from 1906-47,gives the following:
"China Red:Buffer plates and buffer cases" "Venetian Red:All plates inside frames between smokebox and firebox,eccentric rods,crank axle,regulator handle (except handgrip).
Then (in their Chart 4) they mention: "Frames,inside...Vermillion,eccentric rods and cranks also red".
But they then mention at the back of the book,in the 'Colour Samples' section: "China Red/Signal Red...Used on inside frames and from 1881 to 1945 used on buffer beams......It is the same.It is effectively 'vermillion'" The information in the book does seem a bit contradictory.
So,Venetian Red seems to be favourite!
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Livery
Mar 9, 2012 16:02:21 GMT
Post by Rex Hanman on Mar 9, 2012 16:02:21 GMT
Red was only used from the back of the cylinders to the front of the firebox. Everything else between the frames, including bogies and pony trucks, was painted black. It's surprising how many model engineers think everything inside was red. That's really interesting, in common with most I thought all the inside of the frames was red. What happens at the front of the firebox where red meets black? Is there just a vertical join?
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Livery
Mar 9, 2012 17:08:50 GMT
Post by noggin on Mar 9, 2012 17:08:50 GMT
That's really interesting, in common with most I thought all the inside of the frames was red. What happens at the front of the firebox where red meets black? Is there just a vertical join? Yep, Thats what i done the line of the paint join is just behind the firebox, When boiler is between the frame you can not tell where the join is and it looks fine. Noggin
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Livery
Mar 9, 2012 19:09:14 GMT
Post by Rex Hanman on Mar 9, 2012 19:09:14 GMT
Thanks noggin. I'm years away from paint but worth knowing.
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Livery
Mar 9, 2012 19:46:40 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2012 19:46:40 GMT
But they then mention at the back of the book,in the 'Colour Samples' section: "China Red/Signal Red...Used on inside frames and from 1881 to 1945 used on buffer beams......It is the same.It is effectively 'vermillion'" The information in the book does seem a bit contradictory. Contradictory indeed, especially as we are talking about three distinctly different colours here. China red is a deep red (it needed to be deep for the orange buffer beam lining to show up on the express classes). We all know what Signal red looks like, just look at a semaphore arm. Vermillion is a bright orangey red, and it's the colour the LMS used for their buffer beams. As far as I'm aware, Great Western buffer beams were China red up till nationalisation, and Signal red thereafter.
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Livery
Mar 9, 2012 20:55:20 GMT
Post by Phil Sutton on Mar 9, 2012 20:55:20 GMT
Just looked at the Livery Data Sheet from Precision Paints for 1400 class locos 1945 to 48:
Loco Frames inside,
Inner faces Signal Red from rear inside cylinder covers to level with front of firebox.All other surfaces Black.
Phil
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Livery
Mar 13, 2012 11:36:03 GMT
Post by jma1009 on Mar 13, 2012 11:36:03 GMT
hope this solves the query...
'venetian red' is simply varnished red lead oxide.
however, less humble locos (and earlier painting of locos last century) had a top coat or two of vermillion/china red on the insides of the frames on top of the red lead. the vermillion/china red is the same as the buffer beam vermillion/china red.
in BR days, signal red was used on buffer beams on GWR locos instead of vermillion/china red.
the only time signal red was used on GWR locos was pre 1938 when all lamps were painted signal red, and post 1938 just the tail lamps.
please note that 'Brunswick Green' and certainly NOT Humbrol No.3 was not the same as GWR green, though incorrectly GWR green is often called brunswick green. BR brunswick green was quite a different shade altogether.
hope this helps! cheers, julian
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Livery
Mar 13, 2012 11:40:25 GMT
Post by jma1009 on Mar 13, 2012 11:40:25 GMT
to clarify further i dont agree with superseven that china red was a different shade to vermillion. china red was the powder mixed up to provide a colour that these days would be called vermillion. i wouldnt describe china red as a deep red at all. orange lining shows up perfectly well on vermillion. dont forget that in the old black and white photos red (of any shade) shows up as quite dark, which of course it wasnt actually!
i would however agree that GWR china red/vermillion is nothing like the orangey shade of 'red' used on LMS buffer beams!
in practical terms, precision/pheonix paints vermillion is ok for GWR locos, but not for LMS locos!
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Livery
Mar 14, 2012 15:35:23 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2012 15:35:23 GMT
It seems that, as with 'Brunswick green', 'Vermilion' can actually be any one of a range of shades. Three quotes from Wikipedia:
"Most naturally produced vermilion comes from cinnabar mined in China, and vermilion is nowadays commonly called 'China red'."
"The chemical structure of the pigment is HgS mercuric sulfide."
"Mercuric sulfides offer a range of warm hues – from bright orange-red to a duller bluish-red. Differences in hue arise via the size of the ground particles of pigment. Larger crystals produce duller and less-orange hue. It is now theorized that coarser, duller "Chinese" forms of vermilion will prove to be more permanent than the more orange "French" variety."
So now we know!
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Livery
Mar 18, 2012 19:13:58 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2012 19:13:58 GMT
An interesting discussion. I wonder how it applies to other railway companies? With some small shunting locomotives, I understand it may have been all black anyway. Dave
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Livery
Mar 18, 2012 20:06:15 GMT
Post by Rex Hanman on Mar 18, 2012 20:06:15 GMT
As is often the case, I'm puzzled. I always understood that the inside of the frames were painted red as this shows up cracks better. If this is so, why are the frames only painted red between smokebox and firebox? I would have thought that the most likely place for cracking would be around the openings for the horns. Most engines have an axle further back than the front of the firebox. I realise this might be harder to see with the firebox etc. in the way, but the prairies had an opening for the radial truck. Why was it not necessary to paint this area red?
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Livery
Mar 18, 2012 22:32:31 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2012 22:32:31 GMT
why are the frames only painted red between smokebox and firebox? An interesting point. I've always been led to believe that as this was the area where the driver had to climb up to oil the motion, painting everything a colour other than black helped him see what he was doing. Red was a serviceable colour, but wasn't universally used. The Great Eastern, for example, opted for a cream colour.
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