wiring diagram needed for train

[terry1956]

hi chaps, I am looking for some help, sometime back i picked up an electric train at auction. the thing is that there are a lot of cut wires and wires going nowhere. so can anyone help me out on two counts. first I need a wiring diagram so i can check leads etc. second how can i tell if the single motor is 12 volt or 24 volt. excess to the inside is not to great, but I can see a single motor, there is a speed controller, forward and reverse lever, and then lots of cut wires. michael

[peterseager]

You need to gain access to the inside to find the data plates on the motor and speed controller. This should give you a manufacturer, type number and hopefully some data such as voltage, current and maybe more.

What gauge is the loco?
What class?
Is the assumption of a battery powered diesel outline correct? A picture would help.
How many batteries are or could be fitted?
Is the speed control and reversing switch fitted say at the back of the loco so the driver controls the loco from the driving trolley but the controls are on the loco?

If the manufacturer of the speed controller can be found the basic circuits of the loco can be assumed.

Note that a 12V motor can be used on a 24V or 12V controller.

Edit
I am wondering if when you say there is a speed controller you mean the drivers speed control. If that is so the the mass of cut wires are likely to be because the speed controller electronic package was removed. If that is so look up 4QD on the Internet. They have details of their controllers, including wiring diagrams, and lots of useful information besides.

www.4qd.co.uk/

Peter

[Deeja]

Terry,

There may not be any diagram for the loco you have purchased, and it may be necessary to re-wire it using the compontents you have as a least resort. At least that way you know whats in there.

There are a few things you should try to determine.
Is it battery powered? If so do you have the batteries? How many are there? As you mentioned you don't know (yet) the motor voltage rating, so the batteries may give you a clue.

What sort of motors are they?
Do you have dimensions of the motor body or shaft?
Are there ANY rating plates or markings at all on the motor?

It is a fair guess it may be 24V, but it could be 12V if not too powerful a loco.

Do you have any photos of the motors and/or loco?
Is it home-built or a commercial loco?

Once you get some basic info, there are then some things you can measure as the next step, but some basic info is needed first.

Peter's comments on the speed controller and reversing method are valid, but you really need a bit more info if you want more help.

Does it use relays for reversing? or does the controller do it electronically? If relays, the relay ratings can give you some of idea of the currents and voltage used for control?

Deeja

[terry1956]

hi chaps, this is what i know, its a home build 7 1/4 gauge tank engine sort of thing, the battery or batterys went in the riding car, its hard to make out due to the build is one or two batterys,
there is a single elec motor driving the axle by a twin chains. there are two switches one for speed one for forward or backwards, here are a few pictures, michael

[peterseager]

This looks to be very basic.

The regulator must be connected to a tapped resistor. Behind the backhead we can see wires disappearing into the depths of the loco. Is there anything that could act as a resistance on the end of the wires? Photo 4 shows some grey coiled wires could these be part of a resistance network?

The battery would connect one terminal to the fast end of the resistive network and the regulator would select one of the taps this would connect to one of the lowest terminals on the reversing switch and the other battery terminal to the other lower terminal. They top terminals would connect to the motor in such a way that the motor would ether be running forward, stopped, or running in reverse according to the position of the reverser.

Hopefully there is a fuse somewhere in the circuit.

I am intrigued by the device on the left tank with the gear wheel sticking out. Could it be an air blown chime whistle?

[Deeja]

Peter,

Due to the size (7.25" rather than 5") it is a pretty fair bet it is 24V, as the current for 12V would be quite high. Can't totally rule out 12V yet though.

The so called "controller" is indeed 'basic', but is a very effective one, and has been used on trams, elevators and industrial cranes for decades (centuries?).

Go to www.smex.net.au and click the "Reference" tab, then the article on "Controllers". Then scroll down to "Resistive Controller" and I suspect your circuit diagram is very much like that one in Fig 7.

Yes, there MUST be some resistors, or something that can work as a HIGH power resistor (a coil of wire that serves no apparent purpose perhaps?) somewhere in your loco - or at least there was at some time. If there isn't you will have to make some.

Another question: How is it reversed? Mechanically (chains/gears etc), or via a switch or relay, or from something similar to your 'controller'?


Deeja

[modeng2000]

On the left hand side near the fire box door, photos 1 & 2, there is another 2 pole stud switch with 3 positions. This looks like the reversing switch.

John

[terry1956]

thanks chaps, I am next to useless when it comes towiring, so here is may take on the diagrams, please check to see if i have this correct.
from the + side of the battery the currect should run into a fuse, then a battery isolator, then speed controller then to the reversing switch, then to the motor. a - feed from the battery should run from both the revering switch and the motor. have i got this correct, thanks, michael

[peterseager]

Deeja

That's a useful site.

Nothing wrong with keeping it simple.

Michael

You have it right. Basically Fig 7 in the ref plus Fig 4, 5 or 6 according to the motor type. Being an old motor it could have wound fields (instead of a magnet). Assuming it has already been setup for reversing count the wires coming out of the motor. Two = permanent magnets, 4 = wound fields.

Peter

[terry1956]

thanks will have a play later next week, when i have finished the kitchen. michael

[fostergp6nhp]

The electric motors look like ex air ministry rotary convertors.

[Deeja]

Terry,

Summarising the above, and looking more closely at the photos and other comments, I think the following is the situation.

The motor is probably 24V
Motor is likely to be a wound field type rather than permanent magnet.
Your controller is very like that in Fig.7
Your reversing switch is Fig.2 (with a centre off position)
Reversing connections are Fig. 4, 5 or 6 (depending on motor type)

All subject to confirmation of course, or if someone else spots something.

You mentioned about fuses, protection etc.
I would put a fusible battery link (from your car spares place) right next to the battery just like the one in your car, and then a fuse somewhere more convenient a bit further away, but before you go to anything else in the circuit. A battery isolation switch is also a good idea (from your 4WD, boating or caravan bits supplier). Look at Fig.1.

Looking at the state of the existing wiring, it would probably be easier to re-wire the loco, leaving all the switches, motors etc in place and re-using. And make sure you draw a circuit diagram as you do it for when you need to do maintenance later, or for a possible future new owner.

Look forward to reports of progress of the restoration in due course.

Deeja

[peterseager]

On my 5"G Hymek I use a 50 Amp Miniature Circuit Breaker (MCB) instead of the fuse and battery isolation switch. Higher current MCBs are available but not from your average DIY store.

Peter

[steam4ian]

G'day Terry

Something nobody else has picked up, the motor colour.

That grey colour means they are most likely ex MOD which means they will be most likely 24V and of that vintage they will have wound fields. This means 4 wires to the motors. Two heavy wires to the armature connected at the commutator and two lighter gauge wires for the field.

The studs on the reversing switch are smaller than the studs on the speed control possibly indicating that reversing the field connections is used to reverse the motors.

Best thing is to trace out what you can. Work from the point were the batterie/s connected through to the motors and from the motors back. There may be gaps in what you can see or understand.

I am sure if you are thorough enough even if not electrical posting your diagrams here should get you some help.

BTW one photo shows a little motor, it is the hooter taken out of a kid's toy, the motor is fed through a resistor, other photo, to limit the voltage on that motor to say 6 or 4.5 volts.

Regards
Ian

[steam4ian]

G'day Terry

My explanation of the photos.
Photo 1
Boiler backhead showing main speed control with lever on valve (left side) which most probably operates the main switch. The pull wire should operate a switch for the hooter. What looks like the fire door is either a switch or a fuse holder
Photo 2 shows the reversing switch (bottom left) and boiler backhead again.
Photo 3 inside the boiler looking forward, two motors coupled in line.
Photo 4 crown and pinnion bevel gears, ex Stanley hand drill. Note resistor coils bottom left hand corner.
Photo 5 hooter
Photo 6 Inside backhead, top centre-mainswitch? leads from controller to resistors, resistors just at bottom centre. There appears to be a potentiometer in the top left, what it does is? There appears top be a motor under the running board? could be an air pump?

This loco may well have had air (vacuum) brakes for the train hence all the pipe work and pressure gauge in the cab and it explains the little motor under the running board.

Hope that helps
Ian

PS I took another look at Photo 4. Houston may we have a problem! The hole in the side of the motor is where a brush holder should go, it would be held on by three screws (BA of course). However I can see a brush holder at the other end of the motor suggesting that the motors are actually genemotors which were used to convert 24Vdc to say 200Vdc for WW2 radio equipment.

[eightpot]

Got at least one of these rotary converters/motors kicking about. Will see if I can have a look at it tomorrow and find any details.

[eightpot]

Had a look, but no details on it. My late father bought one of these modified into an electric drill post WW2 and ran it off a 12 volt battery. I have a second one, which has the same main body, but slightly larger ends for the bearings. The plate on it reads - "Rotary Transformer 20 Watts, Type 47, 9 volts 6.26 amps To 450 volts .05 amp, Ref No. 10KB/412". In addition it has an original built-on fan at one end.

[alanstepney]

Long long ago I used to strip Ex-Govt equipment down for the parts.
( A part time job whilst at college.)
Saw loads of ex-military motor-generators (even have a couple still), but I dont recognise that one.
(Either its post WW2, was one I didnt come across, or have forgotten: take your choice!)

[terry1956]

chaps, thanks, very much, due to other things I have done nothing bar take the body of the train off. you will see that there are in fact two motos, wired up together. there are no markings so more then like ex MOD. there are two wires to each motor, power feed and earth. but due to bad use of all black wire its hard to follow the wire runs, I can make out the earths and the lives from the motor but the it gos to a rats nest. How would you wire this up easyand please remember i am useless at elecs so please make it very easy to follow, michael

[derekwmoss]

hi there
if you look at the last piccy top right is a compresor or vac pump
top left is the resistor bank with wire up to the faceplate speed control regulator handle
this is a very simple faceplate speed control it nees a live to the high end of the face plate control and a negative to the motor with the reversing coils in there some where which i would say are shunt would so the field coils should be in parralel with the armature before the resitance control(faceplate)

thanks derek

contact me and i will draw you a diagram