Zinctec (Zinc plated steel)

[Jason]

I have already posted this under ModelWorks, but I thought I would ask here as more people read this section.

I Received kit 2 today of the ModelWorks Duchess. They have chosen to construct the tender from zinctec, which is a zinc plated steel. They say it has several advantages, an example being it does not rust and is widely used in the manufacture of washing machine drums. Is is far easier to form to complex shapes, and also allows the paint to adhere to it better. They say this will also allow the use of water tank sealant and remove the operation of soft soldering the tank. I am interested in hearing peoples views on this and also if it is possible to solder Zinctec?

Thanks

Jason

[houstonceng]

Jason

I work for a well known designer/manufacturer of Office Multi-function Products (Combined Digital Photo-copiers/Printer/Fax).

This material is extensively used in these products and, I can tell you, it will rust on exposed cut edges.

What ModelWorks are telling you about "water tank sealant" is essentially that you can use it instead of solder, but - of course - you can use it on mild steel sheet, brass, copper, etc, etc, as well - so Zintec isn't any different.

The material is used in volume production because it's cheap, pre-finished and oten used in areas away from the user without additional paint or other protective coating. It is, however, in our application not exposed to water - unless it's soaked by a sprinkler system during a fire, in which case I have seen the rust which formed on the edges.

It's zinc coating, so it will soft solder - bakers fluid or resin flux. Some Zintec is also finished with an overall coating of "plastic/lubricant", so you might need to clean this off it yours is so treated.

[baggo]

Hi Jason,

The only other comment I would make about Zinctec is that I have always been led to believe that it is a devil of a job to get paint to stick to a galvanised (zinc plated) surface and it requires a special primer. I suspect that the real reason for using Zintec is the cost!

John

[stantheman]

Hi Jason.
Interesting to read that the use of zintec has reared its head. Although not the same material, the question was asked of me recently if I would like to take possesion of some CNC produced sheet work for a 'Brit' tender, produced from mild steel.
After spending my whole 50 years working life as a sheet metal worker I declined, with full confidence that the material suited best for this job is brass. easily worked, even at home, easily fixed, maybe not so easily painted, but with the correct primers can be done. (Probably as much aggravation trying to paint Zintec so that it lasts) No problems whatsoever with rust and the satisfaction of seeing a nice job that would outlast any other. Just for interest the 'Brit' tender parts from Modelworks are made using brass. The old saying comes to mind, if it ain't broke why mend it?

Stantheman.

[stantheman]

As a second comment.

Many years ago (25 to 30) I finished off one of my models using a paint primer known as 'Bonda Primer' on brass. This survived until last year when the model was repainted. I understand this is no longer available although the company still remains.
Not sure what we should use these days.

Stantheman.

[John Lee]

jason said:

I have already posted this under ModelWorks, but I thought I would ask here as more people read this section.

I Received kit 2 today of the ModelWorks Duchess. They have chosen to construct the tender from zinctec, which is a zinc plated steel. They say it has several advantages, an example being it does not rust and is widely used in the manufacture of washing machine drums. Is is far easier to form to complex shapes, and also allows the paint to adhere to it better. They say this will also allow the use of water tank sealant and remove the operation of soft soldering the tank. I am interested in hearing peoples views on this and also if it is possible to solder Zinctec?

Thanks

Jason

Hello Jason,

Zinctec is complete crap, sorry to be so blunt, but I am certain they have done this for cost reasons.

Brass is more expensive, and harder to etch and then paint, but it can be done. But..brass does not rust at all..how long do you want your miniature locomotive to look pristine after you run it exposed to heat and oil?

Something like a 5" Guage Duchess, which could be a beutifull loco, should not be exploited like this. If they take the shortcuts for profit like Winsons, here we go again......

John

[Lurkio]

Hello Jason,

I have no experience with ModelWorks or Winsons, but reading your post I feel the same way as John above on this one. What a shame to seemingly cut corners on the Duchess, which will certainly be an impressive piece of kit when finished. If it's saving a few quid, I'll bet customers would rather have paid the difference, though the kits aren't cheap by any means. No doubt you're disappointed - if so you have a right to be I think. Hope all goes well.

Lurkio.

[stantheman]

Hi everyone on this thread.

Now that the subject of cost, sometimes a difficult area on an open forum, has been visited I beg the question, "have they reduced the cost accordingly". Once again, my own knowledge of material costs throught the ages would suggest to me a substantial saving over brass, the production costs and procedure would have probably remained the same however. As pointed out in the above, the long term survival rates will depend on how well the sealing of all edges and holes is carried out along with a suitable paint finish, and of course care in handling during the, hopefully, many journeys out and about.

Stan.

[John Lee]

stantheman said:

Hi everyone on this thread.

Now that the subject of cost, sometimes a difficult area on an open forum, has been visited I beg the question, "have they reduced the cost accordingly". Once again, my own knowledge of material costs throught the ages would suggest to me a substantial saving over brass, the production costs and procedure would have probably remained the same however. As pointed out in the above, the long term survival rates will depend on how well the sealing of all edges and holes is carried out along with a suitable paint finish, and of course care in handling during the, hopefully, many journeys out and about.

Stan.

Stan,

I will contain my slight anger here. Another potential hobbyist has been fobbed off with sub-standard parts..for profit. This is a generally friendly hobby, lets face it we are all big boys playing with toys.

But, if I had payed the price of a fairly decent car for a kit loco, and they sent me a cheap Zinctec body I would get a bit annoyed.

My reasons....it will last a couple of years or so..there is another potential enthusiasts dreams dashed.. and it is pure exploitaton of enthusiasm.

I tried to help a friend get working a Winson 1400. We did it in the end after remaking or reworking lots of bits. These people seem to be going the same way; allegedly nice people as they are.

My advice; get together with other buyers (forums exist here and elsewhere)... this is not acceptable...send it back. You payed lots for a quality kit, and you expect to recieve it.

A 5" Guage Duchess could be an absolutely beautiful machine.. don't let them compromise your dream... ;D rant over

John

[dscott]

As said Brass is the best for tanks, better to have it fine grit blasted then painted. I have a slab of 1/8" on top of my Gemmas tank lasted 18 years so far without a chip. Some diet!
Zintec cheap chearfull and best left inside computers and things, unless you set your model in the late B.R. years then it will be perfect.

David.

[stantheman]

John.

Fully agree about the possible exploitation, wonder how Trade Description people would rate it with a question about suitability of the material for the purpose! or whatever the term would be. Perhaps we should not go along that track.

Not sure if the group member is a member of any club/society, pity if he is not as that is always a good place to begin to understand the rudiments of model design and materials best suited, along with the good, mainly friendly, chatter that goes on.

Stan.

[markt]

Stan,

I had a Modelworks Duchess brochure and there is no mention of using brass sheet for the tender. Only comment i'd make is, would the real tender have been made out of brass? As i'm now building 4" traction engine should i return the steel boiler and ask them to replace it with a brass one so it doesn't rust!

Mark

[stantheman]

Mark.

We all know that prototype tenders were not made from brass, and they were prone to rust!!

As to your comment about brass for boilers..........!! If you need to ask that question the mind boggles.

Stan

[gugger]

What a crazy idea to use zinc plated steel in Model Engineering. I bet the Chinese will soon conquer the market with better quality.

Walter

[Jason]

Wow, I never thought I would set off such a debate when asking such an innocent question about Zintec. I am glad to see the majority feel the same as myself about Zintec!!! And Mark I also got a MW brochure of the Duchess, and one thing for sure you can not go off it as all for one thing the pictures are for the Britannia and not the Duchess so does that mean I will end up with a Britannia. When I placed the order for the Duchess I thought the materials used would be the same as every other MW and Winson Model which all had Brass tenders. And like Stan said the mind boggles at your comment about a Brass boiler, I’d like to see you get that past your boiler inspector!!!
Moving on, I have spoken to Modelworks who are looking into this for me. I would like to add I do really believe Modelworks have used Zintec believing that it is a better material for a bolt together kits, eliminating the need to solder the tender. I suggested that maybe they should ask the builder which material they would prefer. I will let you know what the outcome is when I get a response.

Jason

[John Lee]

markt said:

Stan,

I had a Modelworks Duchess brochure and there is no mention of using brass sheet for the tender. Only comment i'd make is, would the real tender have been made out of brass? As i'm now building 4" traction engine should i return the steel boiler and ask them to replace it with a brass one so it doesn't rust!

Mark

Mark,

A 1/3 scale steel boiler, and a 1/8 scale loco boiler are two completely different things. You can get away with a bit of rust inside. Anyway this is a tender , longevity discussion, and meant to encourage a kit builder. Thanks for sharing about your big machine...all are jealous I am sure.

Ohh the answer to your question is yes...

[John Lee]

jason said:

Wow, I never thought I would set off such a debate when asking such an innocent question about Zintec. I am glad to see the majority feel the same as myself about Zintec!!! And Mark I also got a MW brochure of the Duchess, and one thing for sure you can not go off it as all for one thing the pictures are for the Britannia and not the Duchess so does that mean I will end up with a Britannia. When I placed the order for the Duchess I thought the materials used would be the same as every other MW and Winson Model which all had Brass tenders. And like Stan said the mind boggles at your comment about a Brass boiler, I’d like to see you get that past your boiler inspector!!!
Moving on, I have spoken to Modelworks who are looking into this for me. I would like to add I do really believe Modelworks have used Zintec believing that it is a better material for a bolt together kits, eliminating the need to solder the tender. I suggested that maybe they should ask the builder which material they would prefer. I will let you know what the outcome is when I get a response.

Jason

Jason,

Its up to you, its your kit and you do as you please but....

Whatever the reasons they have given you (easy to form, their problem say I) brass is vastly superior in the long term in this application to Zinctec. Cost reasons for sure.

You have paid well over £10,000 for this kit, and I would expect the absolute best in materials. Something that you can run for years and be proud of. The naysayers might say only a kit, but the fettling of the bits, and the painting still make this a big project and something you can say YOU have done, and other Model Engineers who appreciate that this is not a 5 minute screw it together job will know this.

The finished item will be a thing of beauty if done properly (by them, not you)

Get complaining that this is not acceptable.... I would.....there are 50 (I think) other potential owners..get together and nag them. I hope not to see another Winsons debacle.

Regards,

John

[markt]

Guys,
My comment about the boiler was 'tongue in cheek' and no offence was meant.
I just get a bit narked about some of the comments thrown around. Things like 'I am certain they have done this for cost reasons', 'sub-standard parts..for profit', 'wonder how Trade Description people would rate it', Winson this and Winson that, 'These people seem to be going the same way', 'I hope not to see another Winsons debacle'.
For crying out loud, get a life, i look at the quality of some of the items i've received and compare them to the Winson parts knocking around and how anyone can say anything they've produced is sub standard for profit, i'll never know. My 14xx has a lovely cast chimney base with rivet detail, cast toolox etc etc etc, plus excellent quality fittings and then i look at a Wison one with what can only be described as butchered billets for fittings and chimney base etc.
ModelWorks can't seem to do right and most of the muck slingers probably aren't or never will be customers. I am a MW's customer and a very contented one at that, yes in reality if i'd have been sent a zintec tender i would have been a little dissapointed but i'm sure if i'd approached them they'd have done everything they could to keep me happy, as they always have.
Jason, my only real advice to you is give the elusive Dean and call (i've always found it better to email him), tell him your concerns and i'm sure he'll do what he can to help.
Good Luck
Mark

[Jason]

Hi Mark,

Yes I did reallies the comment about the boiler was tongue in cheek, and up to now like your self I have been more than happy with the service from MW. I have been ringing them since Friday about the tender, but still have not got a answer. I am sure that the matter will be resolved like you say.
And again like yourself I have praised MW on the quality they are supplying on my Duchess Builders web site. And if Zintec had been used on other Models I would have accepted the fact, but when they launch their most expensive 5" engine I expect the quality to be the same, if they use less quality materials on the 2" Burrel to what had been used on the 4" I am sure the 2" builder would feel the same as myself.
I agree that MW cannot be compared to Winson in any shape or form, and I intend ordering more kits off MW in the future, I only started this thread to find out what people thought of Zintec, for all I know it might have been far superior to brass, but I now know the anwser to that.
I hope to have an answer off MW before the end of the week, I will keep you all posted.

Jason

[John Lee]

markt said:

Guys,
My comment about the boiler was 'tongue in cheek' and no offence was meant.
I just get a bit narked about some of the comments thrown around. Things like 'I am certain they have done this for cost reasons', 'sub-standard parts..for profit', 'wonder how Trade Description people would rate it', Winson this and Winson that, 'These people seem to be going the same way', 'I hope not to see another Winsons debacle'.
For crying out loud, get a life, i look at the quality of some of the items i've received and compare them to the Winson parts knocking around and how anyone can say anything they've produced is sub standard for profit, i'll never know. My 14xx has a lovely cast chimney base with rivet detail, cast toolox etc etc etc, plus excellent quality fittings and then i look at a Wison one with what can only be described as butchered billets for fittings and chimney base etc.
ModelWorks can't seem to do right and most of the muck slingers probably aren't or never will be customers. I am a MW's customer and a very contented one at that, yes in reality if i'd have been sent a zintec tender i would have been a little dissapointed but i'm sure if i'd approached them they'd have done everything they could to keep me happy, as they always have.
Jason, my only real advice to you is give the elusive Dean and call (i've always found it better to email him), tell him your concerns and i'm sure he'll do what he can to help.
Good Luck
Mark

Markt,

Take a deep breath and see Jason's comments above. People are only trying to help.

Winson's hurt a lot of people both in their pockets and their dreams. Many employees (Not the owners) of Modelworks are the same people, perhaps their standards have gone up..maybe not.... but can you please excuse the lingering suspicion around the hobby, its a small world, that this is the case of "here we go again"

The original post..they sent Zinctec bits. This compared with brass is complete rubbish, I really don't care for their reasons for doing it. It is cheaper..the only reason that cut's ice to an engineer or indeed their accountant.

If you are getting nicely engineered parts from Modelworks, more power to them and you. I hope you can build the loco you always wanted. Get narked at comments, whatever........people are only trying to help from experience.

I personally never ever want to see a fellow enthusiast or club member stung for £10,000 from a wide boy, and he gets a disaster that will not run. Modelworks only have this suspicion, unfair as it maybe, because it's 90% the same staff. The guy on the CNC mill who decides that it's good enough, is the same man.

Regards,

John