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Post by stantheman on Dec 7, 2006 20:09:13 GMT
May I be allowed to add my vote of 'here here' to John's recent words.
One of the beauties of a site such as this is that, within reason, fellow enthusiasts can express their own views on many subjects.
Let us all hope for the hobbies sake that this current issue can be resolved amicably.
Stantheman.
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markt
Active Member
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Post by markt on Dec 8, 2006 9:25:22 GMT
John and Stan, Fair comment, sometimes i put my typing fingers in gear before engaging the brain. I'll be nice from now on, even if it's just to improve my Karma ;D I've got to know a few of the MW's team from my experiences and i'd go as far to say a couple have become friends and i know how much they despised the Winson situation as much as we all did. It's a myth that many employees are the same, of the 25 staff only 7 worked for Winson and all 7 of them lost money when Winson went down. They are at MW's because you can't learn boiler making, setting valve timing etc overnight, so there experience was needed. I know this because it was the first question i asked before investing my hard earned cash! Ultimately none of us have any gaurantees that MW's will be around tomorrow, next week, or next year so purchasing a kit will always have some risk but if a switch from brass to steel, for whatever the reason, ensures survival i'm all for it. i want more models to enjoy and do not have the time to manufacture from scratch so MW's are my best option. Business is about managing people's expectation and maybe if MW's had advertised using steel or zintec it would have been different and this debate would never have started as customers would have known what to expect. A lesson for them to learn. Whatever the result i hope everyone ends up happy with an engine they can be proud off (and we can all be jealous off and drool over  ) |
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Post by standardsteam on Dec 8, 2006 10:20:04 GMT
This has gone way off topic now, but I don't think the comment about 90% of the same staff is true. Speaking to Dean he discussed how the price of copper was going up and it was in scales which we never think of based on the limited quantities we buy, and last time I went up there the scrap bin probably contains more material than most of us would use in a lifetime!
One of the things I was particularly impressed with on my Modelworks tender (Britannia) was the way the sides were formed, admittedly they were brass, but I can see how the switch to Zintec is probably an attempt to keep the kit cost down. I'm amazed that kit making is viable at all when you think of the number of staff you need to turn out the volume required. The first time I heard of this material was when Doug Hewson was describing fittings on the Class 4 tender he was describing in Engineering in Miniature. With the cost of materials not set to get any cheaper Zintec may be a material we start to use more often, once it's painted who will know what material your tender is made of?
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Tony K
Elder Statesman
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Post by Tony K on Dec 8, 2006 12:37:23 GMT
Firstly, I endorse everything standardsteam has said.  Markt, There is no need to grovel! You have put your experience and comments backed up by facts - I think more real facts than most who have commented on Modelworks. Well done.  It seems you have been smited for it because some did not agree with what you said, which is wrong. >:(I thought freedom of speech was still allowed - on the internet at least. Now, let's all get on with some engineering. ;D Regards, Tony |
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Post by Laurie_B on Dec 8, 2006 13:03:11 GMT
The first time I heard of this material was when Doug Hewson was describing fittings on the Class 4 tender he was describing in Engineering in Miniature. With the cost of materials not set to get any cheaper Zintec may be a material we start to use more often, once it's painted who will know what material your tender is made of? Without re-reading the actual articles in EIM,I seem to think Doug Hewson only used Zintec for platework such as running boards etc.The actual water tanks for his class 4 tank loco were made of brass,(might actually have been gilding metal as it was thought to be easier to form the slightly curved sides of the tanks),for much the same concerns expressed here regarding corrosion of the cut edges,though one of the attractions of Zintec is that it is a lot easier to paint than brass.I'm not sure what Doug is specifying for the tank of his new class 4 tender loco. A fellow member of my club has recently completed the tender for his 5" gauge class 2 loco-and he actually used mild steel!He said:"it should see me out"! And having seen examples of ModelWorks kits at various exhibitions,I think they do an excellent job,all things considered.Whatever our expectations may be,they do have to operate as a business,and seem to be doing so more successfully than Winsons did. |
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Post by gilesengineer on Dec 8, 2006 13:51:31 GMT
If anyone's deeply worried, might it be worth zinc plating the bits to protect the cut edges before assembly? Or even after assembly....
Absolutely agree that one doesn't want to build in problems......
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Post by ron on Dec 8, 2006 16:36:18 GMT
I've seen a few references to this company 'Winsons' over the while, mostly not very complementary, what's the story?
Ron
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Jason
E-xcellent poster
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Post by Jason on Dec 8, 2006 16:46:27 GMT
Just a quick update on the Zinctec saga !! I spoke to Doug Hewson today who has used Zinctec on his water tank trucks and said that as long as you coat the inside with a good resin paint or fiberglass resin it should be okay, but he would choose Brass for a tender as it will last longer. He thinks that Zintec is better for the boiler cladding than Brass as it is easier to paint using a good quality auto primer. So I think that is what I will be pushing for, MW are having a meeting on Monday and will contact me then. Dean as expressed he does not like to see unhappy customers and will do his best to resolve this matter. I will keep you posted next week what the outcome is. I would also like to thanks everybody who contributed to this thread and I have found it very interesting to read all the differnt opinions that people have on the subject, this forum really does have a wealth of knowledge which is very usefull for the novice engineer like myself to call upon. Thanks, Jason |
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Post by Laurie_B on Dec 8, 2006 16:51:36 GMT
I've seen a few references to this company 'Winsons' over the while, mostly not very complementary, what's the story? Ron Ron, There is a lot of information relating to Winson Engineering,their products,the collapse of the company and the impact it had on model builders who were part way through their various projects at the time. fraserker.com/winson/ |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2006 17:26:40 GMT
As a professional engineer working with mostly aluminium, brass and bronze, I have had the unpleasant experience of seeing my material prices rise by approximately 300% since the 1st of January this year. ModelWorks have my sympathy!
My current project (0-8-0 switcher) will have a mild steel tender and I am confident that it will be trouble free.
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John Lee
Part of the e-furniture
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Post by John Lee on Dec 8, 2006 18:05:29 GMT
Firstly, I endorse everything standardsteam has said. Markt, There is no need to grovel! You have put your experience and comments backed up by facts - I think more real facts than most who have commented on Modelworks. Well done. Regards, Tony Nobody has, I think, smited Mark, nor is his reply, by me at least, regarded as a grovel. Just honest personal opinions stated and refuted. I take it Tony that you are a slightly defensive MW customer.. I may as always be wrong I stand to be corrected by the 90% figure in the same way, I have seen it elsewhere, second hand knowledge I admit, but I am neither a Winsons or MW customer, but I know a few who were (with Winsons). As posted elsewhere they were nasty. I have helped a friend get a Winson's kit to actually work. Slabbed out lumps of inappropriate materials seemed to be the norm. A blind apprentice could have done better with the machining standards, and I am no G.H. Thomas in my workshop. I believe this is on topic. The first post was about Zintec. I still stand by the statement that it is inappropriate for this application. So...why did they use it? Cost of course. Alarm bells start... do it the cheapest and fastest way you can, redolent of Winson's. I really don't care if Brass prices have gone up 100%, 200% or 300%. This is business. They contracted to supply a very expensive kit and that is THEIR problem.. That or other rustless material is appropriate for a 5" tender. MW have, unfortunately perhaps, inherited the shadow of Winsons. I wish every customer the best of luck that they will get the loco they want, and will drool over their Duchess, Brittania or whatever running. I just urge caution, don't let them be a repeat experience in the model engineering community. If it is sub standard, and Zinctec is, send it back. Regards, John p.s. Usra... Zinctec is mild steel..just very thin mild steel with a dose of zinc, which you will scratch off inevitably in places..and the cut edges have none of course. Moderately thick mild steel could be considered an "appropriate" material if sealed up IMHO |
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John Lee
Part of the e-furniture
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Post by John Lee on Dec 8, 2006 19:35:02 GMT
May I be allowed to add my vote of 'here here' to John's recent words. One of the beauties of a site such as this is that, within reason, fellow enthusiasts can express their own views on many subjects. Let us all hope for the hobbies sake that this current issue can be resolved amicably. Stantheman. Thank you Stan, but what we seem to have occasionally is not the reading, thinking (a lot!!) and then posting type people.. in that order is required...sadly. New people to engineering or model engineering should always be welcomed. Kit builders are fine IMHO, new blood, they may be inspired to do more work, or improve what they have. |
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Post by stantheman on Dec 8, 2006 22:48:24 GMT
John.
I think we probably all feel that our own time in model engineering evolved when there were places of work that taught many of us a 'best way' of doing various jobs. My own working lifetime was begun by serving a full apprenticeship as a sheet metal worker/welder.
The comment I have made about this current issue were/are based on many years of working in an engineering environment (all hands on) with a good 30 or so years as a member of a club full of similarly trained 'model engineers'. sadly now of course we are all becoming very thin on the ground. Of course we are not against anyone building/assembling a model purchased in kit form, if that is the way they wish to go about it. But when an issue such as this present one comes 'on air' then some of us get a bit hot under the collar and start to voice our own honest opinions. (Very often this gets a little out of hand)
The main point is that many of us still like, and are able, to go about the hobby making the whole thing from scratch, many are not able to. If they are presented with a kit that does not 'fit' into our own idea of what should be the correct medium then we are going to let off steam, excuse the pun.
Let decent and honest re-appraisal of this matter take place and let peace once again descend on what is very often an enjoyable hobby.
Stantheman.
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John Lee
Part of the e-furniture
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Post by John Lee on Dec 9, 2006 19:06:32 GMT
John. I think we probably all feel that our own time in model engineering evolved when there were places of work that taught many of us a 'best way' of doing various jobs. My own working lifetime was begun by serving a full apprenticeship as a sheet metal worker/welder. The comment I have made about this current issue were/are based on many years of working in an engineering environment (all hands on) with a good 30 or so years as a member of a club full of similarly trained 'model engineers'. sadly now of course we are all becoming very thin on the ground. Of course we are not against anyone building/assembling a model purchased in kit form, if that is the way they wish to go about it. But when an issue such as this present one comes 'on air' then some of us get a bit hot under the collar and start to voice our own honest opinions. (Very often this gets a little out of hand) The main point is that many of us still like, and are able, to go about the hobby making the whole thing from scratch, many are not able to. If they are presented with a kit that does not 'fit' into our own idea of what should be the correct medium then we are going to let off steam, excuse the pun. Let decent and honest re-appraisal of this matter take place and let peace once again descend on what is very often an enjoyable hobby. Stantheman. Well said Stan; I agree entirely. I think Jason ( the original poster) has taken this on board about Zinctec, and I hope his quality problem is solved... I'd love his Duchess if he gets it running. Regards, John |
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Post by ron on Dec 9, 2006 19:22:41 GMT
I've seen a few references to this company 'Winsons' over the while, mostly not very complementary, what's the story? Ron Ron, There is a lot of information relating to Winson Engineering,their products,the collapse of the company and the impact it had on model builders who were part way through their various projects at the time. fraserker.com/winson/Thanks for the link, some of it no longer works but there is enough to get most of the story, not very happy reading  Ron |
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Post by Laurie_B on Dec 10, 2006 11:14:03 GMT
It doesn't look as though the website has been updated recently,but it give an idea of what happened.After taking over,Modelworks did,I believe,put the company on a much more secure financial footing,and addressed some of the quality control problems encountered during the Winson era.
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Post by Phil Sutton on Dec 10, 2006 13:08:51 GMT
This came about because most of the orginal management got the Order of the Boot,and the company recieved a lot of new blood and some of the original workforce.
Phil
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John Lee
Part of the e-furniture
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Post by John Lee on Dec 10, 2006 18:09:38 GMT
It doesn't look as though the website has been updated recently,but it give an idea of what happened.After taking over,Modelworks did,I believe,put the company on a much more secure financial footing,and addressed some of the quality control problems encountered during the Winson era. This thread has turned into a bit of a hot one for one or two people. Jason, the original poster, took the honest opinion, but one or two more have jumped in and taken offence. So here it is... Winsons offered lots of exciting kits a few years ago. A bit expensive but get your own big steam loco or traction engine in 12/18/24 months. Superb scale, all detail, no workshop and minimal skill needed, be the envy of your friends.....you can imagine. Lots of people ordered, included an club friend of mine, a relative beginner, but he knew about tools and had the beginnings of a workshop. What turned up in the monthly kits was a mixed bag. Some was very good, the BRASS topworks for instance, some...and these were the important bits, the bits that turn, and drive, and heat up, and control steam, were to be frank, marginal. Crude aluminium blocks for valve chests, whizzed out at high speed with a blunt tool. Cylinders that must have been bored with a thread tool, and they expected O rings to run in this. Pumps were crude brass blocks, full of swarf. They were selling 50 kits in a batch, if there was not time to quality check this with a staff of 20 or so... hmmmm. If this collection was assembled as described, it was locked up, solid. Even if you twiddled the individual bits as you went along, still solid. Inaccurate quartering the wheels was some of the picture but all the rest was dodgy. Tight where you need clearances, loose fits where it should be a perfect fit. A work of ignorance for an engineer, and a nightmare for the typical beginner customer. All this known from helping said friend to make his 7 1/4 14xx loco work. We did it eventually, remaking many parts. They went bust, I dunno how because they were raking it in, but they did, more incompetence I suppose. And here the Modelworks story starts. Customers may correct me, but this is the bit I know. Modelworks bought all the stock, machinery, designs etc from the reciever, and set up again. There seems to have been a rather dodgy deal done about some part complete stock at a knock down price, but read on the web about that, I dunno but would eye the management with suspicion. Some staff only, I stand corrected, stayed on. So far, customers seem happy. But, and its a big but, suddenly Zinctec bits appear from the carrier. Alarm bells start to ring when advice is asked for. I know brass is expensive but so are the kits. You cannot scale rust even if the original tenders were steel, and they will rust on the edges at least, exposed to abrasive coal, the general steamy environment, muck from the ground etc. If I had a 5" guage Duchess, in which had invested much time and money (they take I guess a minimum 400 hours to just assemble, never mind paint) I would be, to say the least, be dissapointed if it started looking raggy after a few trips out. A potted description of a better forgotten part of the UK Model Engineering history ( I hope). Defensive customers of Modelworks..go to it!! Much smited recently I see, but hey! Regards, John |
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