Water level problem

[fostergp6nhp]

That plug in the top elbow is not causing a restriction when fitted is it?

[uuu]

Have you tried tilting the loco forwards and back, to see how the level in the glass changes ? You could try this hot and cold, to see if (as you note in your original question) the behaviour is different.

Being careful when hot (I suppose you don't need telling of this) not to tilt so far as to dry out the firebox crown.

[ejparrott]

Feb 12, 2013 17:08:32 GMT uuu said:

Being careful when hot (I suppose you don't need telling of this) not to tilt so far as to dry out the firebox crown.

Use a gas torch to heat, when hot remove heat source? Should prevent any damage. Its not as if you'd be having the crown uncovered for very long.

[jma1009]

hi frank,
i agree with fostergp6nhp that plug in the elbow looks very suspect to me, and not good boiler practice in any event which causes me some concern as to who built the boiler for you if the commercial builder added the elbow and plug. however the problems i encountered with a water gauge giving false readings all occured with problems around the bottom fitting and gave similar results to your own findings.
only thorough checking of all the points raised so far will hopefully diagnose the defect and cause of the faulty water gauge reading.
cheers,
julian

[johnthepump]

Have you put this problem to your club boiler inspector they are there to help.

[Deleted]

Hello Chaps------- I'm a bit concerned as that bottom bush looks to me to be BELOW the crown level... but it's only my approximation.. Frank, as per IVARPORISTA's posting, have you done that measurement of the glass LENGTH yet ? and in particular just where the two ends of it come in relation to the holes that enter the boiler at top and bottom..If it's too long then this will give a partial restriction..

[Boadicea]

Feb 13, 2013 19:04:38 GMT johnthepump said:

Have you put this problem to your club boiler inspector they are there to help.

I think you make a very good point John. However, sometimes people prefer to have their failures in private and successes in public and therefore do not want to involve their club unless they have to. I think it depends on the atmosphere at the club. Putting it on here, though, may have the same affect!
I think he should have enough ideas and information now to fix it - and I hope for good news soon

[dinmoremanor]

You mention that this is a new boiler and that to quote "As water is used, the level drops, but no amount of pumping or running with the axle-pump on will get the level to come much above the bottom nut. After a while like this, the loco shows signs of priming"

My experience with new boilers is that water readings can become highly erratic to a point where it is not safe, or indeed wise, to continue running, sometimes I have had the water keep being pushed down the glass only to re-appear in the top nut to get pushed down and out of the bottom nut time and time again. The priming you are mentioning may well be caused by flux residue in the boiler, fill boiler, light up and once up to pressure remove the fire and blow it down. Repeat that cycle a couple of times and with any luck you will gain a steady gauge reading. Worked for me in the past!

[grandfathertyke]

Thanks for that suggestion, Dinmore. What you describe is exactly what has been happening. I've tried everything else suggested above with no success, (including posing the question to club members and people more experienced than me) and was considering calling in the vicar to exorcise the boiler as possession by Old Nick was about the only thing left. I'll try the boil up- blow down technique asap and report the outcome back here. I'm a bit stuck at the moment as the weather here is cold - lifting heavy weights about and temperatures below 6C brings on angina attacks. I've suggested steaming up in the kitchen but for some reason my wife has vetoed this.

Frank

[Deleted]

-----------perhaps it's her that was getting steamed up at your suggestion ??-- I know mine does !! (What's up with these ladies ??--a chap just wants to do a spot of winter maintenance after all ;D ;D)

[grandfathertyke]

Yes, couldn't see the harm. She was going on about soot on the ceiling or something. Irrelevant, if it sorts the boiler out, I'd have thought. ;D

As a postscript to Dinmore's suggestion, I'd very much like to know what is the science behind the proposition that flux residue can affect the water reading.

[Deleted]

Hello Chaps ----------- yes, DINMORE has hit on a point that I think most of us have either forgotten about---I admit to that one myself------or have never known about............ As I'm Ex RN Engine Room my natural Google search found this }----------------- www.lenntech.com/applications/process/boiler/boiler-feed-water.htm ---------------- and this }---------- www.water.siemens.com/en/applications/industrial_process_water/boiler_feedwater/Pages/default.aspx --------------------- and finally this }--------------- www.gewater.com/handbook/boiler_water_systems/ch_12_boilerdeposits.jsp -------------------------------Nice bit of bed-time reading for you there !! LoL-- Silver solder flux residues left over from constructing the boiler are contaminants ( Acids, etc) and will pollute the actual water within the boiler causing it to behave differently than it should...... Water being supplied ( either from the axle pump---the hand pump----or the injector ) is classed as "Feedwater" and can bring other contaminants with it, depending on the water supply itself...( calcium in a hard water area for example)...giving frothing, foaming etc..Assuming that you have now eliminated all possibilities re}---the water gauge-glass, its' design and construction, then your answer must lie elsewhere----- The water quality is the next main culprit----- but just sometimes it's down to boiler operation and management....Would you do me a favour ?? Would you just check that the lower gauge glass "nut" is actually higher than the crown sheet ??----- As a built-in design safety measure it must be so..... Don't worry if it isn't, we can compensate for that----

[grandfathertyke]

Just checked and it is 5/16 higher than the crown.

[steam4ian]

G'day

By priming I presume you mean water carry over with the steam.

Have you looked at how the steam enters the regulator and the dry pipe? Most times the steam enters the regulator from the steam space in the dome with either a pipe upstand leading down to the valve or the valve in the dome (Stroudley fashion). If that pipe is not there then water can get in at the valve. I notice you regulator is in the typical position below the steam space and probably a screw type so the valve part is almost submerged.

A bit of foaming will then easily be carried over.

Can you get the gauge glass to read predictably when cold or stationary? Tilting the loco was mentioned, this should move the water from top to bottom nuts easily.

You report two problems, gauge reading erratically and priming. Fix each separately.

Regards
Ian

[grandfathertyke]

Hello Ian,

Yes, the regulator is as you say, and water is easily carried over. The glass reads accurately when cold; the problem starts when we are up to pressure - the level drops to the bottom nut or even disappears. Adding water to the boiler makes no difference to the level reading, but of course it then starts to cause priming because the true level is high, plus I guess there is foaming. With the fire dropped and temperature falling inside the boiler, the water level starts to behave itself and at cold is back to normal. As soon as the present cold spell here is over and I can get the loco outside I'm going to try the suggestion made above to boil up and blow down several times to clear the flux residue and see if that helps. I also live in a hard water area and wonder if that might have contributed to the problem, although I never have any trouble with my Sweet Pea - but then again, it has an older boiler and no flux residue.

Frank

[dinmoremanor]

Feb 18, 2013 20:05:08 GMT steam4ian said:

You report two problems, gauge reading erratically and priming. Fix each separately.

Not quite true as with a new boiler the erratic water level reading and priming are related. The water gauge has been checked to the nth degree and is reported to be giving good readings when the boiler is not in steam then becomes erratic in steam before returning to normal as the pressure dies away, this is most definitely related to it being a new boiler. See what happens after a couple of blow downs Frank.

[Deleted]

Hello chaps---------- you might give this stuff a try ?? Designed for your central heating but the instructions on it seems to cover your needs as well }----------------- www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fernox-F3-/290862897609?pt=UK_DIY_Materials_Plumbing_MJ&hash=item43b8c799c9 --------------------------- I tend to agree with dinmoormanor.. All the mechanical inspections and tests have been done and found ok---it must therefore be in another area.....Slight hi-jak alert >>>> ( I often ride my Royal Enfield over Dinmore Hill --- and tunnel--- Challenging ride and lovely views !)<<<< OK, back to the thread !!

[steam4ian]

G'day Frank

Get yourself a rain water butt and use rain water.
My club uses rain water exclusively, not that the tap water is particularly hard nor high in TDS. We have a number of tanks feed off the roof gutters of the various buildings. The tree leaves give us a bit of tannin and lower the pH, not a bad thing for copper boilers.
From what you say the boiler is new so scale fouling of the gauge glass nipples is unlikely, if the boiler was old I would go there straight away.
It would still pay to take the gauge glass off and apart. Has thread tape been used? How is the glass tube sealed?

Good luck
Ian

[jma1009]

hi frank,

as has been commented above, 'priming' is a pretty loose term when used in loco circles and can cover too high a water level with water being carried over with the steam to the regulator and cylinders,
and also 'foaming' in the boiler regardless of the water level (which can also cause the above). if the problem you have encountered is foaming caused by flux residue then thorough flushing out will be required probably quite a few times... i expect most of us make sure a new boiler is free of flux residue and bits of swarf etc before fitting to the loco... and i am again a bit surprised that your commercial boiler would have been supplied with flux still left in the boiler.

hard flux residue from prolonged heating can be hard to remove at this stage.

foaming can also be caused by other types of flux and stuff left in side tanks etc from construction... so these ought to be thoroughly cleaned out as well.

foaming can usually be detected in the water gauge as a series of constant moving bubbles and unclear reading. i was under the impression that your gauge glass gave no reading at all when your loco was in steam?

when making silver soldered boiler fittings i afterwards boil them in water with washing up liquid added in a saucepan on the stove (washing up liquid causes foaming too!) for 20 minutes, then flush thoroughly. i was advised of this method by a commercial maker of very fine boiler fitting many years ago.

after pickling a new completed boiler i flush it out with a hosepipe on the mains, then it gets put in the bath, and washing up liquid added and a very hot water shower hose fills it up as many times as needed till any trace of bubbles disappears. it also gets a soak in very hot soapy water, and then thoroughly flushed out again with hot water. only then and after close inspection does the boiler get fitted out ready for testing.

cleaning soft solder flux from side tanks (and even worse saddle tanks) is even more problematic! nothing seems to shift the residue from bakers fluid sometimes apart from labourious scraping with dental probes.

cheers,
julian

[grandfathertyke]

Hello chaps,

First of all, thanks to all who replied to my original post. I said that when the weather improved and I could venture outside for some steaming I'd get back with the results. Over the last couple of days the loco has been steamed and blown down quite a number of times, with the result that the water in the gauge glass is now behaving itself! It seems that the idea of flux residue needing to be cleared was almost certainly the answer.

Thanks again,

Frank