5 inch gauge steel boiler testing

[terry1956]

Hi chaps.I picked up a 5 inch b1 locomotion with a steel boiler. There is no paperwork with the boiler. I have tried looking on the southern fed site for information on getting a test, but a more useless site one could not hope for. I haved looked on the web and the 2006 southern fed test re steel boilers without paperwork was that the hydraulic test was to be made at 2.5 times working pressure, and the steam test as normal. Can anyone please let me know if this is still current per the new green book.thanks, michael

[jackrae]

A steel boiler without material specs and welder's records (assuming it is welded) is a very questionable piece of equipment. You might be safer to bite the bullet and save up for a copper replacement.

[terry1956]

Thanks, I am just after the facts re the test.michael

[jackrae]

First thing to establish is whether or not the boiler has a number stamped on it. If so, this might lead you to where/when and by who it was manufactured and where/when it was last tested. If there are no stamps to trace its origin and it is of welded steel then the NAME boiler code basically disqualifies it for use on the basis that the material specs are not available and the welder cannot be identified. To permit a test you would have to provide samples of the weld for destructive analysis.

[terry1956]

Hi, this is a new boiler, will have a look for numbers. I have just rang the boiler man for southern fed, the boiler if it is free from rust and will hold the pressure as per the green book will get its paperwork. So know need for a big spend on a copper boiler. Michael

[jackrae]

If you go to www.normodeng.org.uk/ you will be on the NAME website.
Select "Boiler Testing" then select "Test Code V12a"

You will then have the draft text of the current green book to peruse.
In there you will find the answers to your question but I feel you may be disappointed with what you read therein.

[terry1956]

I take it you mean 6.3 If welding is undertaken by a person who is not a coded welder the
inspector shall require that weld samples be made available for
inspection and testing prior to the commencement of the welding of
the boiler, or that the welder shall have proof of test pieces being
satisfactorily tested within the 12 months prior to the jointing being
undertaken. Weld samples shall be tested by appropriate testing
laboratories.
thats an easy fix, my brother works for a lab which can test welds and I can get the paperwork for that. michael

[bhk]

Surely could just have the boiler x-rayed as a complete unit?

[Shawki Shlemon]

thats an easy fix, my brother works for a lab which can test welds and I can get the paperwork for that. michael

Read more: modeleng.proboards.com/thread/8376/inch-gauge-steel-boiler-testing#ixzz2XmbIpVhG

If the requirement is a destructive testing and you don't know the builder , how are you going to provide that proof ?

I am a boiler inspector and this make me feel very vulnerable .

[jackrae]

Shawki, I am also a boiler inspector but I have no uncomfortable feelings because I'd exercise my right to refuse to test the boiler on the basis that the code of practice was not being adhered to.
Yes, "rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools".
On this occasion, I believe myself to be the former.

Our club has previously been asked to recertify a steel boiler of unknown manufacture, age or origin, with no prior documentation and it was respectfully refused (by another of our inspectors) on the basis that apart from the actual boiler, we, the testers, cannot meet compliance with the code requirements.

[pault]

Hi All
I would also refuse to test since as far as I am aware there are no published 5" B1 steel boiler drawings, therefore as well as the issues over welder certification and material spec the boiler design is an unknown unless you have the drawings. You can measure material thickness ultrasonically however if you don’t know the original thickness you can not quantify wastage. I am surprised that a “new” boiler has no paperwork.

I would strongly recomend that you talk to whoever will be doing the test for you

[Shawki Shlemon]

I wrote -
I am a boiler inspector and this make me feel very vulnerable .
This means that actions like that promote suspicion and break the trust that we the model engineers have in each other . I also use the code as guide and keep in my mind the ultimate objective which is safety . Where the code says SHAL then that is a bible but where it says SHOULD then I use the commonsense with safety in mind .
I hope that priority in this case and others is not cost first but safety then cost . If safety is compromised our hobby will die .

[elly]

I know of a new steel boiler that has been sent for retrospective testing whatever that means!
the money was paid and the boiler its self failed the test.
a few pounds more and you would have had a ce marked new one.


so you pays your money and takes your chance.


Steven

[terry1956]

Jul 2, 2013 18:18:23 GMT elly said:

I know of a new steel boiler that has been sent for retrospective testing whatever that means!
the money was paid and the boiler its self failed the test.
a few pounds more and you would have had a ce marked new one.


so you pays your money and takes your chance.


Steven

[terry1956]

I know of a new steel boiler that has been sent for retrospective testing whatever that means!
the money was paid and the boiler its self failed the test.
a few pounds more and you would have had a ce marked new one.


so you pays your money and takes your chance.


What total BS. are you trying to say that copper boilers always past

[pault]

Hi Michael
Yes copper boilers do fail tests, however their big advantage is that they do not corrode. A steel boiler can deteriorate just by being stored in the wrong conditions, and corrosion can start immediately after the boiler is welded together.
It is clear from the questions you ask that you have little experience of miniature locos or you would not be asking the questions. The advice you get on here is based on years of experience, if you know better, or you don’t want to hear answers that are not what you want them to be, then there is little point in asking questions.

Its not as simple as just pumping your boiler up.

[disco429]

hi michael
i think steven was just referring to how expensive it could be to have a steel boiler professionally tested and evaluated to acquire all the necessary documentation, from what you said about your brother working in that field though id imagine you have it covered. copper seems to be easier to get along with at our scales but you gotta work with what youv got

my sisters partner likes steel boilers so i can ask him for any information he has if you havent yet found out what you need?

it may be worth reading up on peoples methods of preserving and protecting their steel boilers so you can keep it on top form, i did have a link but its escaped me sorry maybe someone else can advise here?

congratulations on the purchase though and i hope you can get it sorted without too much hassel

dave

[bhk]

I've been thinking about this today, though I'm no expert on the model boiler code, I'm putting this idea out there for opinions.

So you have a steel boiler that is of unidentified material and weld.

You could cut the boiler at front tube plate, this end could then been sent off for both destructive testing of the weld and testing of both weld material and plate material.

A new tube plate could be welded in place all be it with your boiler now 20mm shorter by a approved welder.

The boiler could now be sent off for X-ray of the remaining welds.

This could then all be presented to a boiler inspector and passed as ok or not?

I guess this is similar procedure to the retro respective testing mentioned earlier in the post. But this a mighty expensive processes to go through and ultimately could come back as a fail.

[jackrae]

On the subject of material data sheets and why they are necessary for pressure vessel certification.

Some time past I bought a quantity of black MS flat bar from a very well known DIY retailer. No material spec sheets of course !
The job I was working on required a fairly sharp bend to be made in the material.
Upon bending (cold) the material literally delaminated into several layers.
The moral of the story - not all steels are equal and some are bl**dy awful.

This of course raises the spectre that poor quality steel, possibly imported from another continent, is being followed by similar quality copper. It might look the right colour but does it have the properties it should have ?
In this respect I tend to suspect that twin-and-earth cable, again sold in many DIY stores is of dubious quality as the copper contained in them seems extremely hard (work hardened ?) or contains cheaper alloying elements that decreases the ductility of the copper dramatically.

If this is the case, then how long before we should be looking to supply material data sheets (at a considerable cost) for copper boiler building. The cost is not a simple paper exercise for the supplier - to be perfect, he has to ensure that every piece of material supplied is adequately stamped to provide a trace back to the original material specification sheet supplied by the foundry.

[elly]

Jul 2, 2013 18:27:35 GMT terry1956 said:

I know of a new steel boiler that has been sent for retrospective testing whatever that means!
the money was paid and the boiler its self failed the test.
a few pounds more and you would have had a ce marked new one.


so you pays your money and takes your chance.


What total BS. are you trying to say that copper boilers always past

no what I am saying is the boiler failed a very expensive exercise


if a copper one is structurally sound then some clubs will allow comsol but some wont.

unfortunately nothing is very simple with steel even though it is a much stronger material


though I have the ability to do steel through work I have opted for a ce marked one for my sweet pea.


steven