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Post by Roger on Apr 19, 2019 19:06:48 GMT
My guess would be it probably aids fitting the pipe. The set would allow the fitter to be less precise with the pipe length and also to allow the pipe to swing back a little if servicing the top feed arrangement? Keith Hi Keith, It's certainly possible, maybe Alan's question to his contacts will reveal the answer.
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Post by Roger on Apr 19, 2019 20:45:19 GMT
The pillar drill is rarely used, so it normally lives tucked away behind the Grinder. Fortunately, the travelling crane makes it easy to move it out where I can use it. The job is too high to fit under the quill of the mill, that's why I'm using it now. 20190419_101635 by Anne Froud, on Flickr The hole centres were very carefully measured from the edge to match the 3mm square Brass below then centre popped. Sometimes you have to do things with 'old school' methods! 20190419_101649 by Anne Froud, on Flickr 20190419_113313 by Anne Froud, on Flickr This is one of the pipes that goes through the Pannier Tanks top to bottom for the feedwater pipe to go through. I've squeezed the ends in a collet until they are a nice fit in the holes but they still need a small flat on them to miss the inner wrapper. Here I've drilled a 12mm hole through a piece of Delrin and then cut it in half to support the back of the tube while I flatten the other side... 20190419_162141 by Anne Froud, on Flickr ... and now it fits... just! You can see just how close to the edge the balance pipe comes, and to the right you can just make out the same situation for the filler. 20190419_162804 by Anne Froud, on Flickr 20190419_163122 by Anne Froud, on Flickr This is the divider for the LH side, this time with extra holes to attach the little corner angles. 20190419_212232 by Anne Froud, on Flickr
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Post by delaplume on Apr 20, 2019 1:48:46 GMT
Hello Roger, I've had this reply from a Kevin Dare at Didcot}------------------- Kevin Dare <k.dare@tiscali.co.uk> Fri 19/04/2019 23:49 Hi Alan, On the 57xx / 8750 panniers the injectors are above the running plate just under the rear of the tanks so the pipe runs out around, up and on to the tanks. On all the other classes you mention the injector is below the running plate (usually behind the cab steps) so in coming up to the top feed on the boiler it's easier to go forward from the injector, up through the running plate and through the tank. Regards, Kevin Dare. That seems to fit, even though the 15xx hasn't got a running plate as such..
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Post by ettingtonliam on Apr 20, 2019 4:12:45 GMT
OK, I understand that part of the explanation,but why the apparent bodge that the vertical pipe isn't in line with the top feed fitting? Any suggestion that its to allow flexibility in the pipework isn't, IMHO, supported by the fact that the pipework for tender engines is straight. Do all tank engines of other railways have a similar arrangement or is this a Swindon peculiarity?
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Post by Roger on Apr 20, 2019 7:14:46 GMT
Thanks Alan, I'd echo the above comment though, it doesn't really explain why it's not in line with the top feed. On 1501, you'd easily remove the pipe because there's a long length of pipe at the bottom that leads to the injector which would surely flex enough to get the flange clear.
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Post by 92220 on Apr 20, 2019 7:46:51 GMT
Kevin Dare, at Didcot is a very helpful, and knowledgeable, guy. I've had a lot of email contact with him. He's also the one to contact for GWR drawings. Didcot has about 10,000 different original GWR drawings, and a few BR drawings. They have a register too, in Excell, so it is relatively easy to see what they have got. They only supply digitals, and they are cheaper than the NRM and generally quicker coming too.
Bob.
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Post by delaplume on Apr 20, 2019 8:07:13 GMT
Kevin Dare, at Didcot is a very helpful, and knowledgeable, guy. I've had a lot of email contact with him. He's also the one to contact for GWR drawings. Didcot has about 10,000 different original GWR drawings, and a few BR drawings. They have a register too, in Excell, so it is relatively easy to see what they have got. They only supply digitals, and they are cheaper than the NRM and generally quicker coming too. Bob. I wonder if we were to try a lateral approach and look for drawings / photos of any Welsh tank engines that went through the " Swindonisation" process after being adsorbed by the GWR.............?? Maybe the routing of the injector outlet pipes was altered in a similar manner ???
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baldric
E-xcellent poster
Posts: 210
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Post by baldric on Apr 20, 2019 17:09:36 GMT
I had a chat with Kevin and a few others earlier, he doesn't know why it is not in line with the top feed. As said previously, it is not only the Pannier tank this applies to. The only reason we could come up with are that the person drawing the tanks put the pipe in the middle of the tank, or somewhere to clear something else such as a baffle. Baldric.
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Post by andyhigham on Apr 20, 2019 17:25:41 GMT
Another thought Could it have been built all in line, then at a later date the boiler could have been replaced and the top feeds in a different position?
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Post by Roger on Apr 20, 2019 17:43:08 GMT
I had a chat with Kevin and a few others earlier, he doesn't know why it is not in line with the top feed. As said previously, it is not only the Pannier tank this applies to. The only reason we could come up with are that the person drawing the tanks put the pipe in the middle of the tank, or somewhere to clear something else such as a baffle. Baldric. Hi Baldric, I've got the Works Drawings of the Tanks, and there are no internal components that would prevent the position being inline. Maybe it was just not considered to be important. Just get the pipe up through the tank somewhere then pipe it up.
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Post by Roger on Apr 20, 2019 17:44:50 GMT
Another thought Could it have been built all in line, then at a later date the boiler could have been replaced and the top feeds in a different position? I somehow doubt that would happen because it uses a standard 10 boiler and I can't see them modifying that.
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,913
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Post by jma1009 on Apr 20, 2019 21:19:18 GMT
Hi Roger,
I did a search through Jim Russell's book Volume 2 yesterday, and the results were quite 'random', and in a few cases the drawings appear to show a straight down injector delivery pipe from the top feed, but subsequent pics show what you have with the 15XX.
I haven't a clue about all this. In theory, the top feed should be well forward on the boiler, and having it combined with the safety valve housing further back makes no sense, though internally the feed was distributed further forward.
The obvious option to me in fullsize would be to have the injector delivery pipes between the boiler cleading and the inside of the pannier tank. So that the injector pipework would remain in position if the pannier tanks were removed. The same would apply in miniature, I would suggest.
Cheers,
Julian
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Post by Roger on Apr 20, 2019 21:56:30 GMT
Hi Julian, Thanks for taking the time to research this, it's puzzling, isn't it! I agree entirely that it makes more sense to put the pipe inboard of the tank, you could still get the flange off. I guess we'll never know the reasoning behind it. Still, that's what's on 1501, and that's what I'm having, whether it makes sense or not. Back to today, and these messy things are the frames that hold the filter material to the divider plate on the LH side. The cutter was pretty blunt, but good enough for this. 20190420_203719 by Anne Froud, on Flickr There will still be a piece of angle going along the top and bottom (left and right in the picture), but it will have a cutout where the flange would block the flow of water. I can add the curved 3mm square Brass piece that's just poking its head up on the right, drilling the rivet holes in both directions, but I can't add the angle until I know where the inner wrapper next to the firebox is going to go. That's going to have to be done next. 20190420_222350 by Anne Froud, on Flickr
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,440
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Post by dscott on Apr 20, 2019 23:33:48 GMT
Just had a ponder next to my new set of pipes on 4121. One possibility is that they thought expansion and contraction may be helped by having them curved... Or that they just liked curved pipes!! Your tanks are looking lovely Roger. Can we have tank envy?
David and Lily.
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uuu
Elder Statesman
your message here...
Posts: 2,838
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Post by uuu on Apr 21, 2019 6:50:14 GMT
All this may be answered when you come to make the pipe. Perhaps it will be easier to shape the bends when they're a little further apart.
Wilf
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Post by Roger on Apr 21, 2019 21:22:43 GMT
I'll be mighty glad when all these damned rivets have been fitted, it's hard to keep motivated when it's boring like this. 20190421_111645 by Anne Froud, on Flickr Most of the rivets have been fitted to the middle section for the dividers and filter on the LH side. I think I'm going to have to add at least two rivets to the outside to keep it all together, much as I'd rather not deface the nice outside surface. 20190421_193628 by Anne Froud, on Flickr The next thing to address is exactly how the inner wrapper for the firebox is going to fit, so I need to form those and see how it looks. Attaching them to this middle divider is going to be a challenge. 20190421_221524 by Anne Froud, on Flickr
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stevep
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,072
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Post by stevep on Apr 22, 2019 6:33:22 GMT
I know what you mean, Roger. When I built my Stanier, I put the right number of rivets (though not necessarily the right size). I had made a drilling jig before I changed job, and drilled all the holes in my workshop with a hand-held wheel-brace! The motivation does slip.
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Apr 25, 2019 0:13:52 GMT
Hi Julian, Thanks for taking the time to research this, it's puzzling, isn't it! I agree entirely that it makes more sense to put the pipe inboard of the tank, you could still get the flange off. I guess we'll never know the reasoning behind it. Still, that's what's on 1501, and that's what I'm having, whether it makes sense or not. If you look at the Swindon GA side view, it could appear as though a pipe vertically down from the top feed would foul the balance pipe (it doesn't). Similarly if you look at the GA plan view, it could appear that if the pipe through the tank were further forward it would foul the centre crank pin, and on a drawing these things don't move ;-). They didn't have 3D CAD to prove designs in 1948. Could it be that a very junior draughtsman did the detailing, and he had a poorly-developed sense of spatial interpretation? It's a rubbish theory even by my standards, but strange things have happened in DOs... said my father, who worked in one... Gary
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Post by ettingtonliam on Apr 25, 2019 7:36:53 GMT
Discussion in the thread relating to the 3MT tank reveals that they had the same arrangement of offset vertical sleeve pipe, so there must have been good reason behind this if it was a common solution, to a problem which isn't now apparent to us. All I can conclude is that by uncoupling the joint at the clack, and at the bottom of the pipe, this allowed the pipe to swing well clear of the clack before removal.
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Post by delaplume on Apr 25, 2019 10:11:02 GMT
From the small amount of photos seen I think the 94xx also had that same arrangement...
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