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Post by Roger on Apr 25, 2019 21:58:39 GMT
This is the first of the Pannier Tank inner wrappers that goes next to the Firebox. I've rolled it to get it somewhere near the right curve and now it needs Annealing so I can fold the edges. 20190424_195621 by Anne Froud, on Flickr This time I've used the folder and it works just fine. I didn't use it before because I didn't think it would be strong enough to bend 1.5mm Brass sheet with a tight enough bend. That might have been true in the 'Half Hard' state, but it didn't prove to be a problem when soft. I've added a 'G' clamp for good measure though to make sure it's clamped tightly. 20190424_205408 by Anne Froud, on Flickr I Annealed it again before adjusting the bends and using a mallet and supporting the ends to straighten the edges. It was also a little too wide so I gave it a squeeze in the vice. The first one is ready for fitting to the tank, but I need to drill the rivet holes in that first. It's easier to set that up in the mill and put them in on the wrapper and then spot it through when it's been clamped up in the right position. 20190425_224346 by Anne Froud, on Flickr
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,943
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Post by JonL on Apr 26, 2019 13:27:54 GMT
I do like that folder. I may have a crack at making something similar.
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Post by Roger on Apr 27, 2019 14:46:31 GMT
This the first of the inner wrappers next to the firebox. I changed the way this was going to be fitted so now the divider plate has one of the cutouts in the wrong place. I'll make those again shortly. 20190427_153410 by Anne Froud, on Flickr This is roughly how it looks in place. There's a decent gap between the tank and the boiler so I should be able to get a couple of layers of insulation between the two. 20190427_154307 by Anne Froud, on Flickr On to making the second one now that I know it's going to be satisfactory.
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Post by 92220 on Apr 27, 2019 17:50:45 GMT
Hi Roger.
You should do well with the insulation. You have insulation between the boiler and cladding and between the cladding and the tanks. That will be almost 1/2" thickness won't it? I would guess that the water in the tanks will stay at ambient temperature as you are using ceramic fibre. It's all looking superb. Steaming by Christmas???
Bob.
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Post by Roger on Apr 27, 2019 18:14:45 GMT
Hi Roger. You should do well with the insulation. You have insulation between the boiler and cladding and between the cladding and the tanks. That will be almost 1/2" thickness won't it? I would guess that the water in the tanks will stay at ambient temperature as you are using ceramic fibre. It's all looking superb. Steaming by Christmas??? Bob. Hi Bob, I don't think it's quite as much as that, but I reckon there's about 6mm of insulation space between the boiler cladding and the back of the tanks. The tank insulation is graphite loaded Polystyrene, so that's even more effective than the Ceramic variety. I reckon the tanks are going to be at ambient as you suggest. There's still a lot to do before I'm anywhere near ready for steaming!
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Post by andyhigham on Apr 27, 2019 19:07:54 GMT
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Post by Roger on Apr 27, 2019 19:13:47 GMT
That stuff looks interesting, and cheap enough. I've got some on its way!
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Post by delaplume on Apr 27, 2019 20:19:50 GMT
Yes-------- ditto regarding useful..
Roger, will you give us a report on this stuff in due course please ???
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Post by Roger on Apr 27, 2019 20:56:07 GMT
Yes-------- ditto regarding useful.. Roger, will you give us a report on this stuff in due course please You can bank on it Alan! My impression is that for some reason the whole business of insulating Pannier tanks has been completely neglected. Maybe someone who's read the Model Engineer over the decades can shed some light on that? If that's the case, I find it frankly bizarre. My only explanation is that it's been assumed that the tanks will get hot anyway, and the simplest solution is to just feed injectors from another source rather than address the problem. Maybe the situation on 1501 is unusual in that the water feed and injectors are so visible that there's no practical way to make a visually scale arrangement and provide a separate feed from the riding car? I can understand why people just buy commercial injectors, and if you're going to fit one of those and forget about scale appearance, where the water comes from isn't going to make it look much worse.
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Post by andyhigham on Apr 27, 2019 21:47:44 GMT
I fitted side tanks to my Sweet Pea. There is an air gap of around 8mm at the centre line of the boiler. I have never had a problem putting water into the boiler using commercial injectors, even using water stored in a water tower on a hot day. Turning the water about 10 seconds before the steam helps. (or leaving the water running) A slightly leaking clack is usually a show stopper
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Post by delaplume on Apr 27, 2019 21:57:46 GMT
Hey Roger------- and to add insult to injury for some reason they then go and paint them RED !!!
I can't help you re}--- tank insulation.. I suspect it'll be our old "Friend"}------- we've always done it that way !!
Crack-on regardless and I for one will be championing your cause ( Be prepared to loose a few friends as a result of that !! ) LoL ..
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Post by Roger on Apr 28, 2019 7:10:33 GMT
I fitted side tanks to my Sweet Pea. There is an air gap of around 8mm at the centre line of the boiler. I have never had a problem putting water into the boiler using commercial injectors, even using water stored in a water tower on a hot day. Turning the water about 10 seconds before the steam helps. (or leaving the water running) A slightly leaking clack is usually a show stopper That's interesting, I wonder why I've read that it's such a problem then? Maybe some designs do transfer enough heat into the tanks to cause a problem, or maybe the injectors aren't very good. Either way, from what you say it doesn't seem likely that I'm going to have a problem if I insulate them.
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Post by andyhigham on Apr 28, 2019 7:47:52 GMT
I would hazard a guess that the gap between the boiler and the tank allows air flow to take some heat away. Last week one of our club members was running a Speedy with injectors fed from the pannier tanks
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Post by steamer5 on Apr 28, 2019 8:30:24 GMT
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Post by 92220 on Apr 28, 2019 9:24:43 GMT
Hi Kerrin.
I used to sell Kaowool insulation. They actually invented it. It was first shown on BBC Tomorrow's World back in the early, to mid, 1980s. Someone had a sheet of, I think, 1" thick Kaolwool on his hand while someone played a gas torch on it for quite a long time. I wouldn't like to try that myself (!!), but they also advertised that a 4" thickness of blanket was used to insulate a blast furnace. The blanket is a bit better insulator than the paper. Not sure why this is but maybe because the 'blanket' has more air trapped in it than the 'paper'.
Bob.
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Post by Roger on Apr 28, 2019 10:52:42 GMT
I've got some Ceramic fibre insulation between the boiler and the cladding, then 4mm Graphite loaded Polystyrene where the temperature is lower between the boiler cladding and the tank. I don't thing Ceramic insulation is as effective as Polystyrene, but you can't use Polystyrene next to the boiler. I'll also use that reflective tape that Andy came up with, probably putting the reflective surface against the boiler cladding.
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,943
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Post by JonL on Apr 28, 2019 10:54:16 GMT
I used reflective tape on one of our race cars (underside the airbox) and saw an air temperature drop of 4-6 degrees at the intake. Doesn't sound like much but you think how much energy is required to heat something 5 degrees I think its pretty impressive.
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,440
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Post by dscott on Apr 29, 2019 1:19:18 GMT
It works so well on the house and Workshop that the Gas supplier requests that I send in a photo of the gas meter!! That is after I have taken off the Bypass pipe!!! It is incredibly sticky but tears easily to size. comes with backing paper! In the workshop which is insulated all round I can go in there in August at midday and cut some axles to length as long as we keep the door shut. Leave it open and it heats up! Same as winter but to keep the cold out. David and Lily.
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Post by delaplume on Apr 29, 2019 9:06:42 GMT
It works so well on the house and Workshop that the Gas supplier requests that I send in a photo of the gas meter!! That is after I have taken off the Bypass pipe!!! It is incredibly sticky but tears easily to size. comes with backing paper! In the workshop which is insulated all round I can go in there in August at midday and cut some axles to length as long as we keep the door shut. Leave it open and it heats up! Same as winter but to keep the cold out. David and Lily. Hi David, Yes, Joyce and I can vouch for that, can't we ??.........Thanks for the recent time at Tilehurst...We hope to be calling again this season and have some quality track time up at Prospect Park......Best regards......A & J
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Post by Roger on Apr 30, 2019 11:45:28 GMT
Here's the new LH divider plate complete with the angles which will form a seal around the outside so the water will have to go through the filters to reach the injector valve outlets. There will be a removable filter in the inlet, so this is only to catch the odd fragment that might enter the tank when those are out for cleaning. There will also be a filter in the line from the riding truck to make sure that all of the water in the system is filtered. The top filter is just to let air escape so that can be much smaller. That was the one that was in the way and necessitated remaking the divider in the first place. I've moved the bottom one outwards by 4mm too since that was very close to the inner wrapper next to the firebox. The other side has the same holes but no filters. I won't bother with the corner flanges, probably just the outer one. 20190430_123538 by Anne Froud, on Flickr
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