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Post by ettingtonliam on Oct 10, 2019 11:25:50 GMT
I rarely like any 'how to' videos, (some of the American ones in particular are dire) but I did like that one of Keith Appletons.
I admit to happily using a flat file to put a quick chamfer on the end of a turned piece, if only just to get the sharpness off it and make it safer to handle and I've no problem at all using an oily piece of emery to put a polish on the piece. Do I get drummed out of the regiment for that? Maybe there will be a naughty corner at the Midlands Exhibition next week for people like me.
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Post by simplyloco on Oct 10, 2019 13:51:23 GMT
SNIP Do I get drummed out of the regiment for that? Maybe there will be a naughty corner at the Midlands Exhibition next week for people like me. That little corner does not have be that big because very soon there will not be any of us left! John
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millman
Part of the e-furniture
Posts: 313
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Post by millman on Oct 10, 2019 15:12:39 GMT
I also have no problem using a file on the lathe, standard practice in industry, same with a bit of emery, the famous wrap around turning tool for taking off the last couple of tenths and giving a nice shiny finish, only thing I will say about files and lathes is to fit a file handle, to all files, needle files as well. I have seen quite a few people with the tang of a file sticking out the back of their hand, they have assured me it is exceedingly painful and that they will not be doing it again. Also don’t forget the safety glasses.
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Post by Roger on Oct 10, 2019 17:51:37 GMT
I also have no problem using a file on the lathe, standard practice in industry, same with a bit of emery, the famous wrap around turning tool for taking off the last couple of tenths and giving a nice shiny finish, only thing I will say about files and lathes is to fit a file handle, to all files, needle files as well. I have seen quite a few people with the tang of a file sticking out the back of their hand, they have assured me it is exceedingly painful and that they will not be doing it again. Also don’t forget the safety glasses. I'm afraid I disagree strongly about emery paper, we were told to never do it because the grit gets stuck into the carriageways and it grinds away the ways. If I ever do it, which is extremely rare, I cover the ways with paper towel to catch any dust. There's a very good reason why Grinding machines are designed the way they are with totally covered ways!
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Post by ettingtonliam on Oct 10, 2019 18:27:46 GMT
Thats why I use oiled emery, not dry, the oil keeps the dust on the emery.
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millman
Part of the e-furniture
Posts: 313
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Post by millman on Oct 10, 2019 19:50:56 GMT
Depends who is paying for the machine, if it’s me I put a paper towel or a couple of sheets of newspaper on the bed and carefully remove it afterwards, when work were buying the machine, and they were Hardinge HLVH it didn’t matter, the job was more important than the machine, their attitude was that it was a tool to be used, not something to be cherished and whatever process was needed to complete the job was ok. We had a couple of Hardinge that were purchased in the mid sixties and thrashed every day since, they had a bit of backlash in the screws but could still turn out work all day long to plus or minus a thou, in aerospace materials, not our leaded free cutting steel.
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Post by Roger on Oct 10, 2019 20:16:57 GMT
Depends who is paying for the machine, if it’s me I put a paper towel or a couple of sheets of newspaper on the bed and carefully remove it afterwards, when work were buying the machine, and they were Hardinge HLVH it didn’t matter, the job was more important than the machine, their attitude was that it was a tool to be used, not something to be cherished and whatever process was needed to complete the job was ok. We had a couple of Hardinge that were purchased in the mid sixties and thrashed every day since, they had a bit of backlash in the screws but could still turn out work all day long to plus or minus a thou, in aerospace materials, not our leaded free cutting steel. That just sounds like a bad attitude to me, all machines deserve respect in my opinion, regardless of who owns them. All my machines are workhorses, not cherished, but I don't deliberately trash them through bad practice either. I can only imagine that they didn't polish things often enough to really wreck the machine. In our workshop we had a 'polishing lathe' that was used just for that. It was in a shocking state, but it didn't matter. I use the workhead on the grinder for that sort of thing because it was designed for that sort of work.
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Post by Roger on Oct 10, 2019 21:15:53 GMT
This is the whistle servo valve diaphragm cover plate. I've just run that pointy tool rapidly across the face with a 1mm cut to really rough it up so it grips the diaphragm. 20191010_102012 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr Setting it level and holding it firmly in the mill is challenging without a fixture. I could have used a chuck, but I though that would damage the edges and not hold it as firmly as an ER32 collet. This is the piece being gently pressed down and tightenend to it's true to the spindle... 20191010_204115 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr ... so it ends up like this. 20191010_204140 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr Then it was just a matter of drilling the 1.6mm clearance holes for the bolts and drilling and tapping the M3.5 thread for the union and machining the 'O' ring pocket for the 0.5mm section 'O' ring. I machined it 0.2mm under size and measured it before setting the final offset to get the diameter right. It's more fussy than most of the ones I've done due to the small section of the 'O' ring. 20191010_212215 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr The diaphragm needs some sort of punch to make a neat job of it, so this is one made from Silver Steel. The parallel ID is the diameter I want and the outside tapers away from the cutting edge at 20 degrees. The holes are 2.4mm to take the Silver Steel punch for the 1.6mm holes. 20191010_120226 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr 20191010_122027 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr 20191010_213220 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr 20191010_213434 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr Having punched the first hole, there was nothing to stop the disc from rotating, so I made a dummy pin to keep it in place for the rest of them. 20191010_214612 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr That's the pin and the last hole punched. I gently pressed them into cardboard. 20191010_214641 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr Finished... or so I thought... 20191010_214739 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr ... because I'd forgotten the middle hole! So another hole was added to the punch and here it is actually finished. 20191010_215841 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr
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Post by Roger on Oct 11, 2019 22:10:54 GMT
I've made a few more of the 4mm pipe fittings today, I'm going to need them for the Whistle Servo valve and I'll probably end up fitting two of those. 20191011_113352 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr The M7 x 0.75 (fine) tap arrived today so I was able to get on with the inlet and outlet unions. This is the inlet one.... 20191011_115248 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr ... which needs a hex... 20191011_122210 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr ... and ends up being Silver Soldered to the body. I've put a ring of 0.5mm Silver Solder round the joint. 20191011_145001 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr 20191011_145228 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr It was just enough to form a nice joint without flowing everywhere. 20191011_150547 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr After cleaning up, I roughed up the face on the lathe and then machined the rest of the details on this side. 20191011_201023 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr I need 8mm bolts for this, but I've only got 10mm ones, so the rivet cutting jig was used for that. I made an M1.6 threaded holder for these from one of the spare blanks I made. 20191011_223906 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr This is the outlet fitting being finished off. It's being held by my M10 x 1 threaded bush. 20191011_121750 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr An this is how it all looks together. I'm not happy with the way the diaphragm goes together and it hasn't got a spring as yet. I can see why it needs one, the diaphragm has a mind of its own and the valve won't get anywhere near the seat when there's no pressure. It's also too difficult to hold the valve for tightening it to the diaphragm as expected, so I'll make a new one with a hex of some sort to make that easier. Still, it's good progress and I can't see anything fundamentally wrong as yet. 20191011_225544 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr It's nice and compact, so finding a place for it is going to be easy enough. So a bit more to do, but so far so good. 20191011_225605 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,976
Member is Online
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Post by JonL on Oct 12, 2019 8:07:51 GMT
Does your design use an everlasting blow down valve? The Britannia does, so I'd be interested to see how you go about it if it does.
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Post by Roger on Oct 12, 2019 8:41:06 GMT
Does your design use an everlasting blow down valve? The Britannia does, so I'd be interested to see how you go about it if it does. Indeed it does. If you search my thread for 'Everlast' you'll find it. It's in the area of Dec 2, 2018 if you want to go to the relevant pages. I'm told that my version is physically much larger than it ought to be, but it's hidden away so I didn't bother redesigning it.
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oldnorton
Statesman
5" gauge LMS enthusiast
Posts: 717
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Post by oldnorton on Oct 12, 2019 10:19:22 GMT
Hi Roger
Just caught up on the whistles discussion. I like your thoughts on 3D printing one in plastic and fully support the research, but wonder if it is the best route to get a result? You will benefit from reading Pete's (Doubletop's) past thread and pulling together what He, Julian and I have said there.
That nice, middle and soft note from your whistle is perhaps an artificial, under-blown tone. As soon as you hit it with steam I guess it will become more shrill, as your second video shows.
In summary from that past thread, my feelings are that thin metal tubes introduce additional, annoying, high pitched harmonics. Thick tubes (1/16") don't do this as much, but will condense more steam but they heat up in a couple of seconds anyway. This means the tone 'comes in' and sounds almost more true as a result. Also, a narrow languid of around 0.006" - 0.008" will keep up the steam pressure and thus create velocity which is needed for volume. A typical 5" long x 1/2" diameter whistle will then have a clean but high frequency. You can drop this frequency by lengthening the tube (usually impractical) or by making a double bore tube, as shown on my video in Pete's thread. The removable inserts, as used by Pete and me, do make an easy job of the manufacture.
I will be fascinated to hear a plastic, double bore, 0.008" languid whistle on steam if you should decide to make one!
Norm
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Post by Roger on Oct 12, 2019 12:09:28 GMT
Hi Roger Just caught up on the whistles discussion. I like your thoughts on 3D printing one in plastic and fully support the research, but wonder if it is the best route to get a result? You will benefit from reading Pete's (Doubletop's) past thread and pulling together what He, Julian and I have said there. That nice, middle and soft note from your whistle is perhaps an artificial, under-blown tone. As soon as you hit it with steam I guess it will become more shrill, as your second video shows. In summary from that past thread, my feelings are that thin metal tubes introduce additional, annoying, high pitched harmonics. Thick tubes (1/16") don't do this as much, but will condense more steam but they heat up in a couple of seconds anyway. This means the tone 'comes in' and sounds almost more true as a result. Also, a narrow languid of around 0.006" - 0.008" will keep up the steam pressure and thus create velocity which is needed for volume. A typical 5" long x 1/2" diameter whistle will then have a clean but high frequency. You can drop this frequency by lengthening the tube (usually impractical) or by making a double bore tube, as shown on my video in Pete's thread. The removable inserts, as used by Pete and me, do make an easy job of the manufacture. I will be fascinated to hear a plastic, double bore, 0.008" languid whistle on steam if you should decide to make one! Norm Hi Norm, Thanks for the additional information, I've got a lot more reading to do. I think I might be passing too much volume so I've got a modified version to print with only about 2/3 of the width of the slot. The harmonics of the tube will certainly be a factor in the tone, which is still quite soft when it's blown really hard. I still need to measure the frequency to see roughly what note it is on air. I'm proably going to wait until I've got a way to run it on steam before I go much further though. The languid width you suggest is certainly possible, and probably better produced with a finer nozzle, but that might not be necessary. A double bored version is easy enough to make with a separate cap on the top, I just need to figure out what the dimensions need to be. All interesting stuff.
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Post by Roger on Oct 12, 2019 15:48:31 GMT
This is the revised design with changes as follows... 1) A hex has been added to the end of the valve so I can hold it with a box spanner during assembly 2) The diaphragm washers have gone up from 6mm to 8.5mm diameter so it supports the diaphragm better and also gives a spring something to bear against. 3) The cover plate has an increased diameter inside to clear the larger washer. Servo valve assembly sectioned2 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr Adding the hex is a challenge because it's going to want to unscrew as it's cutting. It's only an M1.6 thread, so not that strong really, even though it's Stainless Steel. I'd already got the standard M1.6 fixture on the right, so I made the spacer so I could screw the valve firmly onto it. 20191012_124722 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr I did this very gingerly indeed, using a 2mm cutter and 0.1mm deep cuts at 5mm/min. It took about an hour, but who cares, it's not a race! 20191012_152719 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr So here's the revised set of parts ready for assembly. I've set the nut on the valve shaft in the right position and added a drop of Loctite to aid assembly. It was a different animal when it came to assembly, dead easy in fact, even with the spring. It seals up nicely as assembled, so it just needs testing. Anyway, that can wait, the main thing is to know that this is going to fit under the cab stretcher. I think I'm going to have to add a few fixing holes in the stretched in plausible positions to accommodate different whistle arrangements since I can see this being the subject of some considerable experiment later on. 20191012_154346 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr
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oldnorton
Statesman
5" gauge LMS enthusiast
Posts: 717
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Post by oldnorton on Oct 12, 2019 16:46:21 GMT
Just a quick question.... has anyone used Nickel Electroplating on bright Steel components such as connecting rods to prevent them from rusting? I'm considering using it on some of the linkages on the inside of the frame where they might go rusty. Painting isn't that satisfactory on links because you can't protect the parts where the links work against each other. I've been watching this video on YouTube and it looks really simple to do. To that end, I've bought a piece of Nickel and some Vinegar to have a go when I get a minute. It will be interesting to see if the finish looks ok or whether it would look wrong for the bigger more visible items. I do nickel plating on parts for motorcycles. Works very well on new steel, more difficult on old steel that was once rusty. With respect, I would not pursue a nickel anode + vinegar method. The plating solutions are slightly acidic pH3.5 nickel sulphate solution plus other agents, heated 35-50 degC and stirred; anodes are nickel sheet and these need to be arranged around the work; work suspended on tungsten, stainless or copper wire; plating current has to be controlled to achieve a flux density of 10-100 mA/in2. Keys to success include caustic cleaning, rinsing, rubber gloves, deionised water, cleanliness and special acid dips before plating. You need a whole bench full of plastic containers of chemicals, and ideally a sink. The finish is bright and slightly yellowish, rather than the blue of stainless. The surface will exactly imitate the finish before plating, i.e. if it was 400 grit satin before plating it will still look like that. I think it will be fine for exposed motion, and nicer than stainless. I would not do mine - keeping stuff oiled does a good job. Look at the Gateros Plating website if you are keen. Norm.
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pault
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,500
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Post by pault on Oct 12, 2019 16:48:53 GMT
Just catching up with the thread. Ref Emery cloth in the lathe. At training school when someone asked for Emery cloth on the turning section they were told that we were being taught turning not polishing. That said I would be a liar if I said I had never used emery on a turning job. I prefer scotchbrite for a quick polish.
Regarding the whistle valve blowing by at low pressure. I remember being asleep in a sleeping car at Steamtown Carnforth when about midnight I was woken by a moaning noise. By 1am it was quite loud and stoping me sleeping so I got dressed and went out into the rain and wind to find the cause of the noise. It was the whistle on a black five which had been lit up during the afternoon to go to Carlisle the next day. It took until about 3 am when there was enough pressure to shut the whistle valve. So your whistle valve would be similar to full size
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pault
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,500
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Post by pault on Oct 12, 2019 16:55:07 GMT
Ref plating rods Noooooooo. It is a pet hate of mine when people make rods from stainless because they look wrong. It's not hard to wipe them over with a bit of oil on a rag to keep them rust free. The same would apply to ptated rods. There is something very nice about a set of properly draw filed rods.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2019 17:04:44 GMT
Hi Roger Just caught up on the whistles discussion. I like your thoughts on 3D printing one in plastic and fully support the research, but wonder if it is the best route to get a result? You will benefit from reading Pete's (Doubletop's) past thread and pulling together what He, Julian and I have said there. That nice, middle and soft note from your whistle is perhaps an artificial, under-blown tone. As soon as you hit it with steam I guess it will become more shrill, as your second video shows. In summary from that past thread, my feelings are that thin metal tubes introduce additional, annoying, high pitched harmonics. Thick tubes (1/16") don't do this as much, but will condense more steam but they heat up in a couple of seconds anyway. This means the tone 'comes in' and sounds almost more true as a result. Also, a narrow languid of around 0.006" - 0.008" will keep up the steam pressure and thus create velocity which is needed for volume. A typical 5" long x 1/2" diameter whistle will then have a clean but high frequency. You can drop this frequency by lengthening the tube (usually impractical) or by making a double bore tube, as shown on my video in Pete's thread. The removable inserts, as used by Pete and me, do make an easy job of the manufacture. I will be fascinated to hear a plastic, double bore, 0.008" languid whistle on steam if you should decide to make one! Norm Hi Norm At some point in the future I'll need a whistle that sounds like an LNER Bell whistle (IIRC bell is the correct type for my loco) .. I know nothing about sound and how to achive it via a whistle, is there any reading material out there that may help me understand the basics? I did read some of Pete's thread but it's a little above my pay grade, plus I guess I have so many other things to learn/understand during my build that I haven't been able to devote my full attention to a whistke, well not yet. I don't really need to understand the physics, just how to achieve a sound that emulates the LNER whistle as heard on Gresley's A1/3 pacifics.. Pete
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pault
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,500
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Post by pault on Oct 12, 2019 18:12:39 GMT
I'm not sure how a plastic whistle will sound. I seem to remember reading that chime whistles made at Doncaster sounded different to those imported which was allegedly due to differences in the thickness and material the whistles were made from.
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Post by Roger on Oct 12, 2019 19:38:33 GMT
I'm not sure how a plastic whistle will sound. I seem to remember reading that chime whistles made at Doncaster sounded different to those imported which was allegedly due to differences in the thickness and material the whistles were made from. I would imagine there will be a lot fewer high frequency harmonics, the ones that make small whistles to shrill and ear splitting. That might be no bad thing. Until I've done a lot more experiments and on Steam, I can only speculate as to what it might sound like.
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