Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Jun 8, 2020 20:55:20 GMT
I think you are all getting a bit too absorbed in all this without seeing the bigger picture. GWR locos were generally badly painted in 'A' shop. There was no dedicated paint shop, and all paint was applied by brush. The 15XX class probably came within the period of commercial tins of paint. But gloss black is gloss black. That is what these locos were painted with. There is substantial photographic evidence of this. I've never known of waterslide transfers deteriorate, and, yes, they should best be applied to a gloss paint surface. And I've never used varnish on a miniature loco either. You stir a tin of black gloss enamel to paint a 15XX just as they do on the SVR, and many of us do in our workshops. You don't have to stir up pigments at the bottom of the tin for black gloss, or stir it around at 1000rpm scratching the bottom of the tin; it is black gloss enamel after all. Cheers, Julian Got to agree with everything Julian says. I wouldn’t personally even think about spraying frames. That’s what brushes are for, and they can get into every crevice. A layer of track dirt and you”ll soon wonder why you bothered with anything else. The platework and tanks are different perhaps, but it is possible to get an a pretty good brushed finish if you can keep the surface flat. On a cab, do one side, turn it over once it’s dry and do the front (or back) and so on. Actually, this is the safe way of spray painting too, with judicious masking, if you are not highly skilled at it (how many of us are?) Decals like to sit on a gloss surface. I do use gloss varnish or lacquer when the need arises, and do generally find it improves the finish, but beware with transfers; I did once find an (acrylic) lacquer that made some transfers ‘orange peel’ which wasn’t expected (or helpful). There’s often some spare material on a sheet of decals which can be used for a test. Good luck! Gary
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Post by Roger on Jun 8, 2020 21:26:41 GMT
I think you are all getting a bit too absorbed in all this without seeing the bigger picture. GWR locos were generally badly painted in 'A' shop. There was no dedicated paint shop, and all paint was applied by brush. The 15XX class probably came within the period of commercial tins of paint. But gloss black is gloss black. That is what these locos were painted with. There is substantial photographic evidence of this. I've never known of waterslide transfers deteriorate, and, yes, they should best be applied to a gloss paint surface. And I've never used varnish on a miniature loco either. You stir a tin of black gloss enamel to paint a 15XX just as they do on the SVR, and many of us do in our workshops. You don't have to stir up pigments at the bottom of the tin for black gloss, or stir it around at 1000rpm scratching the bottom of the tin; it is black gloss enamel after all. Cheers, Julian Got to agree with everything Julian says. I wouldn’t personally even think about spraying frames. That’s what brushes are for, and they can get into every crevice. A layer of track dirt and you”ll soon wonder why you bothered with anything else. The platework and tanks are different perhaps, but it is possible to get an a pretty good brushed finish if you can keep the surface flat. On a cab, do one side, turn it over once it’s dry and do the front (or back) and so on. Actually, this is the safe way of spray painting too, with judicious masking, if you are not highly skilled at it (how many of us are?) Decals like to sit on a gloss surface. I do use gloss varnish or lacquer when the need arises, and do generally find it improves the finish, but beware with transfers; I did once find an (acrylic) lacquer that made some transfers ‘orange peel’ which wasn’t expected (or helpful). There’s often some spare material on a sheet of decals which can be used for a test. Good luck! Gary Hi Gary, I don't think I'd be happy with brush painting the frames, there are some areas that are pretty visible, especially around the front of the Smokebox. Those flat areas ought to be easy to spray, and if the more tricky unseen parts don't come out perfect then so be it. I really don't see the case for avoiding spraying the frames. The idea of using an Airbrush is that you can get in close and apply the paint very selectively, the clue is in the name after all. Anyway, we'll see how difficult it is in due course.
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Post by steamer5 on Jun 9, 2020 0:54:32 GMT
Hi, More a question to the assembled experts than Roger, there has been several comments regarding transfers not liking matt or semi matt paint to stick on. So the question is.......has anybody tried applying varnish to the painted surface such that it is JUST enough for the transfer & once dry apply the transfer over that, followed by a a coat of varnish as required over the top? As you can gather from the question painting is a yet to be done task......I have Chris’s book so I have hope!
Cheers Kerrin
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kipford
Statesman
Building a Don Young 5" Gauge Aspinall Class 27
Posts: 567
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Post by kipford on Jun 9, 2020 8:40:35 GMT
Roger I agree with you on spraying the frames, but you will get some issues with overspray in the tight corners on the inside of the frames. Couple of tips I was shown by a friends son who sprayed cars for a living. First always track the gun parallel to the spraying surface. do not spray in an arc and always spray beyond the panel edge. Second put on a dust coat so it gives a misted surface. Then spray the edges of the panel, same effect as the marker pen. Then spray the panel normally. I have used this technique on everything from race car body work to 4mm scales coaches, with great success. Dave
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Post by Roger on Jun 9, 2020 10:15:51 GMT
Roger I agree with you on spraying the frames, but you will get some issues with overspray in the tight corners on the inside of the frames. Couple of tips I was shown by a friends son who sprayed cars for a living. First always track the gun parallel to the spraying surface. do not spray in an arc and always spray beyond the panel edge. Second put on a dust coat so it gives a misted surface. Then spray the edges of the panel, same effect as the marker pen. Then spray the panel normally. I have used this technique on everything from race car body work to 4mm scales coaches, with great success. Dave Hi Dave, So if I understand you correctly, you approach a corner from both flat surfaces, rather than trying to go around the corner. How do you start and stop though? Whenever I've sprayed with a can, I've started and stopped away from the surface I'm spraying. How do you go about this when you're in a confined space, say the inside of the frames and you need to start or end in a corner? Do you have to start above the corner, go down onto it and then away in the direction of the flat surface you're spraying, say a stretcher? When you say a 'dust coat', do you mean one that's with the gun further away from the part? I'm not sure how that's supposed to work.
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kipford
Statesman
Building a Don Young 5" Gauge Aspinall Class 27
Posts: 567
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Post by kipford on Jun 9, 2020 11:33:15 GMT
Roger Sorry If I have confused you, I do it to myself as well. The technique above is designed for panel surfaces, like car body panels and the outside of frames. The first coat is probably better described as a mist coat. You use the same set up as for normal spraying, distance, pressure etc, but you just spray on a very light coat, you should still be able to see primer through it, this gives a key for later. By the way YES you always stop and start off the panel. Then you go round the edge of the panel and put on a reasonably full coat. Then you spray the panel normally, tracking parallel to the surface ensuring each track starts and stops off the panel, although you do not have to stop spraying. The inside of the frames are not going to be easy and I think here the same initial technique applies, mist coat, then the edges/corners, followed by the main surfaces. I would track the paint top to bottom of the frames but with the frames held vertically and do a lot more light coats. Make yourself a test piece and practise what technique suits you and your equipment first. In 4mm scale I have an old coach body I use. Others may well disagree with my method, but it has worked for me for 40 odd years. Dave
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Post by Roger on Jun 9, 2020 11:59:30 GMT
Roger Sorry If I has confused you, I do it to myself as well. The technique above is designed for panel surfaces, like car body panels and the outside of frames. The first coat is probably better described as a mist coat. You use the same set up as for normal spraying, distance, pressure etc, but you just spray on a very light coat, you should still be able to see primer through it, this gives a key for later. By the way YES you always stop and start off the panel. Then you go round the edge of the panel and put on a reasonably full coat. Then you spray the panel normally, tracking parallel to the surface ensuring each track starts and stops off the panel, although you do not have to stop spraying. The inside of the frames are not going to be easy and I think here the same initial technique applies, mist coat, then the edges/corners, followed by the main surfaces. I would track the paint top to bottom of the frames but with the frames held vertically and do a lot more light coats. Make yourself a test piece and practise what technique suits you and your equipment first. In 4mm scale I have an old coach body I use. Others may well disagree with my method, but it has worked for me for 40 odd years. Dave Ok, I think of got it now. Yes, I can see that going up and down on the frame insides would work. I don't think it will be possible to have the gun perpendicular to the surface in both planes though. I'll give it a go and see how I get on.
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gwr7800
Part of the e-furniture
Member of Portsmouth mes
Posts: 388
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Post by gwr7800 on Jun 9, 2020 18:57:39 GMT
There are lots of experts on the forum that have far more experience than me, Dave ( kipfords ) technique Worked for me, my friend sprays cars for a living he told me the same way. My Cockington Manor was hand painted with brushes on the inner frames and I used Phoenix paints sprayed on everything else, after 20 years of running the paintwork still looks good! I remember the first time I Fired/ ran the loco for the first time the mess that came from the chimney on my lovely paintwork when opening the regulator! I was horrified!! The paintwork puts up with a lot of abuse, ash hot oil, dirty cloth cleaning it down after the run! Best of luck when you do yours looking forward to reading all about it Regards Chris ( not Chris Vine !!! )
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Post by Roger on Jun 9, 2020 19:04:51 GMT
There are lots of experts on the forum that have far more experience than me, Dave ( kipfords ) technique Worked for me, my friend sprays cars for a living he told me the same way. My Cockington Manor was hand painted with brushes on the inner frames and I used Phoenix paints sprayed on everything else, after 20 years of running the paintwork still looks good! I remember the first time I Fired/ ran the loco for the first time the mess that came from the chimney on my lovely paintwork when opening the regulator! I was horrified!! The paintwork puts up with a lot of abuse, ash hot oil, dirty cloth cleaning it down after the run! Best of luck when you do yours looking forward to reading all about it Regards Chris ( not Chris Vine !!! ) Hi Chris, That's good to know. I'm not going to be precious about anything on the locomotive, it's being made to be used so dents, scratches and such like are going to happen. To be honest, that really doesn't bother me at all. That doesn't mean I won't strive to get it pretty good to start with or treat it like a piece of junk though.
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Post by andyhigham on Jun 9, 2020 19:22:23 GMT
One of my favorite model locomotives, a Peppercorn A2 "Pearl Diver" has that authentic patina from never being cleaned.
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Post by 92220 on Jun 10, 2020 8:20:06 GMT
Bob Great reading Is there aan brush you would recommend? I know there are two types? one with a little bowl on the top and the other with a glass jar that crews in from the bottom.Are they any pros and cons on either? I would rather do some checking forst than buy one only to find it is a wrong'un!! Ron Hi Ron. For our use, painting locos, we need a reasonable size reservoir. The one I use is the Badger 200 with the glass bottle. The bottle holds enough to paint a boiler or tender, in one go.....if you want to. It is also a single action airbrush that means you adjust the spray pattern with a screw on the back of the handle. This gives you a constant spray pattern, so it is much easier to spray large areas. The more expensive double action airbrushes just don't hold enough paint in their little top-mounted reservoirs. They also take a lot of practice to get used to because you have to do 2 actions at once, to spray. First you pull the button back and get a variable spray pattern, and then you also, at the same time, have to push the button down to allow a variable amount of paint to get to the nozzle. If you don't use one of these on a very regular basis, you can have difficulty combining the 2 actions in a smooth, controlled way. The single action airbrush doesn't have this problem. The other point is don't go for the cheaper airbrushes that have the airjet blowing across the top of the paint pot jet, to draw paint up a bit like an injector works. They are very 'hit and miss' as far as paint finish goes, because all sorts of things can effect the draw of paint from the reservoir so you can get variable paint thickness. It is also very easy to 'dry spray'. That means the air flow is so great it partially dries the paint spray before it reaches the surface, and so adhesion is compromised and the finish tends to be dusty. Hope that helps. Bob.
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Post by 92220 on Jun 10, 2020 8:30:08 GMT
Hi Roger, when I painted my Manor after a complete rebuild, I fitted all stretchers in place before painting, you really shouldn't get any rust problems unless you had assembled them in a very damp atmosphere. I assembled the cylinders after painting, they had gaskets anyway so I considered a thin coat of paint wasn't going to make any difference. Yes you will need to mask the bearing surfaces before grit blasting, you can keep the masking in place for painting if it is still ok. I didn't grit blast so used petroleum jelly on the bearing surfaces to keep the paint off, just wiped it all off after painting. Definitely practise on something to get the hang of the process and to get the spray gun adjusted to suit your technique. Have fun it is really quite rewarding when you see the results. Chris D Hi Chris, How did you spray paint evenly over the stretchers? I can picture spraying flat surfaces, but ones with faces at 90 degrees to each other and with nooks and crannies could be really challenging. So your cylinders bolt to the frames with gaskets in between? I was warned of that idea, but it's something I quite liked the idea of. I think the argument was that the gasket would relax and the cylinders might become loose. I wanted to do it more from a heat transfer point of view, to stop heat being transferred into the frames. I wonder what they did in full size? Anyway, I'm sure a lot of the painting issues will resolve themselves when I come to do it. I'm actually rather looking forward to it. I've just ordered a half mask with respirator filters, but that's going to take a couple of weeks to arrive. I didn't want a full mask because being a glasses wearer, I know that it's really hard to keep them from steaming up even with a simple face mask. All good fun! Hi Roger. Painting a fully stretchered frames assembly evenly, with an airbrush, is relatively easy, and the best way. After all, that is how they did it in fullsize, and stretchers were assembled metal to metal, before any paint was applied. The airbrush is just like a miniature spray gun and applies a 'miniature' amount of paint. Unless you have badly adjusted the airbrush, or dwell too long in one place, you almost can't put on too much paint. If you are applying a number of coats, it doesn't matter anyway. The next coat will even up a previous coat. All you are after is the thinnest coat you can achieve, with full opacity. Bob
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uuu
Elder Statesman
your message here...
Posts: 2,828
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Post by uuu on Jun 10, 2020 9:04:06 GMT
When spray painting an assembled frame, does the paint creep around the back of nuts in corners, or do you need to pre-paint these with a brush?
Wilf
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Post by Roger on Jun 10, 2020 9:56:36 GMT
Hi Chris, How did you spray paint evenly over the stretchers? I can picture spraying flat surfaces, but ones with faces at 90 degrees to each other and with nooks and crannies could be really challenging. So your cylinders bolt to the frames with gaskets in between? I was warned of that idea, but it's something I quite liked the idea of. I think the argument was that the gasket would relax and the cylinders might become loose. I wanted to do it more from a heat transfer point of view, to stop heat being transferred into the frames. I wonder what they did in full size? Anyway, I'm sure a lot of the painting issues will resolve themselves when I come to do it. I'm actually rather looking forward to it. I've just ordered a half mask with respirator filters, but that's going to take a couple of weeks to arrive. I didn't want a full mask because being a glasses wearer, I know that it's really hard to keep them from steaming up even with a simple face mask. All good fun! Hi Roger. Painting a fully stretchered frames assembly evenly, with an airbrush, is relatively easy, and the best way. After all, that is how they did it in fullsize, and stretchers were assembled metal to metal, before any paint was applied. The airbrush is just like a miniature spray gun and applies a 'miniature' amount of paint. Unless you have badly adjusted the airbrush, or dwell too long in one place, you almost can't put on too much paint. If you are applying a number of coats, it doesn't matter anyway. The next coat will even up a previous coat. All you are after is the thinnest coat you can achieve, with full opacity. Bob Hi Bob, Maybe I'll get braver and spray much more of it as one assembly then. One problem I have with adding parts afterwards is that the bolts have to be screwed onto an already painted surface. It would help if the bolt heads were sprayed over as a complete assembly.
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Post by delaplume on Jun 10, 2020 10:36:28 GMT
Hello Roger,
I don't know if this has been mentioned earlier but when considering the minimal mainframe assy. for painting don't forget to include the 4 buffer bodies as well....
Alan
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Post by Roger on Jun 10, 2020 11:42:46 GMT
Hello Roger, I don't know if this has been mentioned earlier but when considering the minimal mainframe assy. for painting don't forget to include the 4 buffer bodies as well.... Alan Hi Alan, The jury is still out on that one. I'm not 100% convinced that's the best way to do them because the gussets behind them would then also have to be fitted and that makes painting them awkward. At the moment I'm planning on painting the buffer stocks separately.
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Post by 92220 on Jun 10, 2020 13:46:07 GMT
Maybe I'll get braver and spray much more of it as one assembly then. One problem I have with adding parts afterwards is that the bolts have to be screwed onto an already painted surface. It would help if the bolt heads were sprayed over as a complete assembly. Hi Roger. Fixing screws onto an already painted surface, is always tricky. With our loco building there is no way that you won't come across this problem. This is where having the minimum thickness paint coat while having full opacity, is the trick. You should then wait AT LEAST 4 weeks before screwing onto a newly painted surface. The 4 weeks is the MINIMUM time that white-spirit based paint (enamels) take to go through their chemical changes and fully harden off. I can't speak for other brands but Phoenix Paints are vehicle enamels. They will eventually go as hard as the paint on your car, while still being flexible enough to not crack easily. My original test when I was looking at types of paint to make, was to brush a coating onto a piece of gloss art paper and leave to dry, and harden, for a month (actually I think it was a couple of months because I forgot it). I then rolled it around a pencil to see if it would crack, which was asking a lot of it!! It didn't crack, so I was happy to go ahead with the vehicle enamel as the basis for the paint. As far as spraying the fully assembled frames goes, it is a lot easier than you think. The airbrush puts on such a fine coat, and it is inside the frames, which, even as a bare assembly, isn't easily scrutinised, so stopping the spray pass while still over a surface, isn't as much of a problem as it would be painting the boiler or tanks, where the surface can be critically viewed. Obviously, if you can spray something and stop the spray off the surface of the part, that is the best way....but it is not always possible. As far as spraying into a corner goes, You will need to reduce the pressure and reduce the spray cone to get into the corners without putting too much paint on. Build up slowly. Playing around with the pressure and spray cone is an important practice for painting locos. Even on a 5" g loco, there will be times when you have to adjust the spray cone down to as little as 1/2" at around 2" distance. On the odd occasion, even smaller; but you will need practice to make sure you don't spray too much paint on in one area. Bob.
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Post by 92220 on Jun 10, 2020 13:54:26 GMT
When spray painting an assembled frame, does the paint creep around the back of nuts in corners, or do you need to pre-paint these with a brush? Wilf Hi Wilf. It certainly can happen that the backs of screws and nuts don't get painted. Maybe I have been lucky with my loco because when that has happened I have always been able to work out how to use the airbrush to spray them. That is when you need to play around with reducing the pressure and bringing the spray cone down in size. It's times like these that the airbrush really comes into it's own when you can actually spray an area only around 1/8" with very little overspray effecting previous coats. If you have to use a brush for any model painting, don't buy cheap. You should always buy sable brushes. Sable hair is so tough that it just never cracks and breaks off like other animal hair, and synthetic hair. If painting a large flat area, use the largest flat sable brush you can afford (probably a 1/2" or 3/4" flat brush), and try and always paint with the surface horizontal, so the the paint flows out but has nowhere to form paint runs. Bob.
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nonort
Part of the e-furniture
If all the worlds a Stage someone's nicked the Horses
Posts: 277
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Post by nonort on Jun 10, 2020 14:10:57 GMT
One problem with trying to compare full size and models is one that I am not prepared to enter into. The main difference between a full size spray gun and an air brush is the fact that no air brush that I know off produces a fan jet, but a cone pattern. Which gives a very uneven coverage. Just my thoughts carry on chaps.
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Post by Roger on Jun 10, 2020 14:46:34 GMT
Maybe I'll get braver and spray much more of it as one assembly then. One problem I have with adding parts afterwards is that the bolts have to be screwed onto an already painted surface. It would help if the bolt heads were sprayed over as a complete assembly. Hi Roger. Fixing screws onto an already painted surface, is always tricky. With our loco building there is no way that you won't come across this problem. This is where having the minimum thickness paint coat while having full opacity, is the trick. You should then wait AT LEAST 4 weeks before screwing onto a newly painted surface. The 4 weeks is the MINIMUM time that white-spirit based paint (enamels) take to go through their chemical changes and fully harden off. I can't speak for other brands but Phoenix Paints are vehicle enamels. They will eventually go as hard as the paint on your car, while still being flexible enough to not crack easily. My original test when I was looking at types of paint to make, was to brush a coating onto a piece of gloss art paper and leave to dry, and harden, for a month (actually I think it was a couple of months because I forgot it). I then rolled it around a pencil to see if it would crack, which was asking a lot of it!! It didn't crack, so I was happy to go ahead with the vehicle enamel as the basis for the paint. As far as spraying the fully assembled frames goes, it is a lot easier than you think. The airbrush puts on such a fine coat, and it is inside the frames, which, even as a bare assembly, isn't easily scrutinised, so stopping the spray pass while still over a surface, isn't as much of a problem as it would be painting the boiler or tanks, where the surface can be critically viewed. Obviously, if you can spray something and stop the spray off the surface of the part, that is the best way....but it is not always possible. As far as spraying into a corner goes, You will need to reduce the pressure and reduce the spray cone to get into the corners without putting too much paint on. Build up slowly. Playing around with the pressure and spray cone is an important practice for painting locos. Even on a 5" g loco, there will be times when you have to adjust the spray cone down to as little as 1/2" at around 2" distance. On the odd occasion, even smaller; but you will need practice to make sure you don't spray too much paint on in one area. Bob. Hi Bob, I didn't really appreciate how much you would need to adjust pressure and spray pattern to achieve the results you need. I get it now. There are some places, such as between the gussets on the corner angles where you need to direct a small cone at low pressure between them to have any hope of getting paint into such a small space. At least, that's my understanding of what you're suggesting. I'll have to do a bit of experimentation to see how that adjustment goes.
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