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Post by delaplume on Mar 3, 2021 13:45:53 GMT
Thanks chaps for the digital height gauge info----- I've had a look at all those leads and I feel a bit of E-Bay selling coming on to fund it....
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Post by Roger on Mar 4, 2021 23:06:16 GMT
I tested all of the new cones in the development body to make sure they looked ok. The new bodies didn't initially work, and that turned out to be because the adjustable Steam Cones wouldn't quite go in far enough. With that rectified, they now work fine, with no leaks. Here I'm finally cutting off the lugs and tidying up the bodies. 20210304_165537 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr I'm calling that done. I did manage to break one of the cones, and this isn't the first time. I'll slightly increase the diameter of the necked portion to add a little more material around the 0.9mm holes. 20210304_225537 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr Overall, they've come out pretty well. The misaligned centre hole on one of them doesn't show so I'll just put that down to experience. Maybe one day I'll make a replacement that's better made. These will look a lot better when they've acquired a nice patina. 20210304_225629 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr I also tested the two cones that have 9 degree delivery tapers. I agree with Julian on this, I can't see the difference in performance to the 7 degree ones, but I didn't perform exhaustive tests. I'll do more when I test the non-scale body I'm making.
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Post by springcrocus on Mar 4, 2021 23:10:15 GMT
One of the biggest and best contributions to the world of miniature locos in a generation! Damn good job, Roger.
Kind regards, Steve
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sis
Seasoned Member
Posts: 113
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Post by sis on Mar 4, 2021 23:39:11 GMT
"The theoretical man knows why. The practical man knows how. The man who would lead must know why and how."
Not sure where that quote comes from but it was written in an old book I once saw and it seems appropriate for this thread, you certainly are leading the hobby into the future!
Regards, Steve
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Post by delaplume on Mar 4, 2021 23:47:50 GMT
It's a shame the ME Exhibition isn't on------- that there is a Gold Medal in the palm of your hand !!
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Post by David on Mar 4, 2021 23:52:57 GMT
Quite amazing Roger! "Pretty well" is a bit of an understatement :)
Good news the single taper seems to work well. Now whoever sets up the small business to sell reamers to the rest of us will only make half the losses.
How did you fix the problem with the steam cone not going in far enough?
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Post by Roger on Mar 5, 2021 0:00:37 GMT
Quite amazing Roger! "Pretty well" is a bit of an understatement Good news the single taper seems to work well. Now whoever sets up the small business to sell reamers to the rest of us will only make half the losses. How did you fix the problem with the steam cone not going in far enough? Thanks David. There's very little room for the thread, and I'd tried to make it functional too close to the end. I removed 0.2mm of female thread in the body and also ran a die up the thread with the back to the shoulder. It didn't go any further, but it took a shaving off which combined with the clearance was all that was needed. It's a bit fiddly to make the adjustable part, there's probably a better way of doing it. However, I only need two, so it's not a big issue.
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 5, 2021 0:13:45 GMT
I am very pleased that Roger has potentially found a 9 degree taper to the delivery cone to work.
I am very pleased that Roger decided to do this.
It goes to prove that a 9 degree taper reamer is acceptable for Roger's 16 oz per minute delivery injector, though I would still use a 13 degree taper reamer for the start of the inlet to the steam cone before the throat, as this just seems right to me, though I accept totally that the long steam cone throat that Roger ended up with and no taper beforehand works extremely well.
This bit/detail of the steam cone Roger has proved to be inconsequential, but let's just call it fancy on my part to continue with it!
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Post by flyingfox on Mar 5, 2021 7:41:56 GMT
Well done Roger, excellent piece of work. Regards Brian B
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Post by springcrocus on Mar 5, 2021 8:09:37 GMT
Hello Roger,
A couple of questions, if I may?
First, are you going to publish a completed drawing of the innards of your injector? If you do, will you sell copies or are you planning to place the drawing in the public domain? And, finally, if they are free to use, would you like a royalty or small donation to somewhere?
I'll be honest, the reason I haven't yet finished the plumbing on the Britannia is that I was hoping you would successfully complete your project before the spring and I could make one of your injectors rather than purchase a possible piece of junk from the retailers.
The plan is to get the testing completed around Easter time and have a first lap of Broadfields soon after that. It would be nice to tell others that I have one of the first Froud injectors on the loco, assuming I am able to make one and get it to work OK.
Regards, Steve
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Post by Roger on Mar 5, 2021 8:34:52 GMT
Hello Roger, A couple of questions, if I may? First, are you going to publish a completed drawing of the innards of your injector? If you do, will you sell copies or are you planning to place the drawing in the public domain? And, finally, if they are free to use, would you like a royalty or small donation to somewhere? I'll be honest, the reason I haven't yet finished the plumbing on the Britannia is that I was hoping you would successfully complete your project before the spring and I could make one of your injectors rather than purchase a possible piece of junk from the retailers. The plan is to get the testing completed around Easter time and have a first lap of Broadfields soon after that. It would be nice to tell others that I have one of the first Froud injectors on the loco, assuming I am able to make one and get it to work OK. Regards, Steve Hi Steve, I'm planning to include detail drawings of a simple non-scale injector along with cone dimensions and method of making them in an Article for the Model Engineer. I'll also make them available in the Designing Injectors thread. I want to make them freely available to encourage people to make their own. At some point, I might decide to make batches of the cones for sale, but that's probably the only commercial interest I would have. If someone else want to do that themselves, then they are welcome to do it. There's really not much money to be made from such a venture, and it's very boring making lots of them. I'd much rather offer it as a gift to anyone in the hobby who can make use of it. I'm currently working on the final piece of the puzzle to do away with the ultra fine adjustment of the Steam Cone to set the regulation gap. You should see the results of that shortly. Don't worry Steve, you'll definitely be able to make one. I've seen what you can do, and this won't pose any problems.
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Post by Jim Scott on Mar 5, 2021 10:28:44 GMT
Quote
"At some point, I might decide to make batches of the cones for sale, but that's probably the only commercial interest I would have".
Hi Roger
The availability of 'one piece' cones would certainly entice many more model engineers to make their own injectors. I will pre-order my two now...!
No matter how altruistic you are there will always be someone somewhere prepared to make money at your expense. Maybe you should control this by allowing a very competent young person who is well versed in the manufacture of high quality scale components to manufacture and market them on your behalf? It could bring a very welcome supply of high quality injectors to the market in both scale and commercial simpler designs.
This fascinating injector story has been running for over half a year now and has been compulsive reading. I've learned much and its even provided birthday present suggestions for my family - books by Bob Branson and D A G Brown.
Looking forward to the next adventures....
Jim
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Post by simplyloco on Mar 5, 2021 11:14:00 GMT
Quote "At some point, I might decide to make batches of the cones for sale, but that's probably the only commercial interest I would have". No matter how altruistic you are there will always be someone somewhere prepared to make money at your expense. Maybe you should control this by allowing a very competent young person who is well versed in the manufacture of high quality scale components to manufacture and market them on your behalf? It could bring a very welcome supply of high quality injectors to the market in both scale and commercial simpler designs. Jim You wouldn't be alluding to a certain young person on here would you, cast in the same mould as our Roger? A good idea IMV.😊
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Post by andyhigham on Mar 5, 2021 11:35:08 GMT
If it's who I think you are referring to, scale injectors would fit perfectly into his business
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Post by Roger on Mar 5, 2021 12:03:14 GMT
Quote "At some point, I might decide to make batches of the cones for sale, but that's probably the only commercial interest I would have". Hi Roger The availability of 'one piece' cones would certainly entice many more model engineers to make their own injectors. I will pre-order my two now...! No matter how altruistic you are there will always be someone somewhere prepared to make money at your expense. Maybe you should control this by allowing a very competent young person who is well versed in the manufacture of high quality scale components to manufacture and market them on your behalf? It could bring a very welcome supply of high quality injectors to the market in both scale and commercial simpler designs. This fascinating injector story has been running for over half a year now and has been compulsive reading. I've learned much and its even provided birthday present suggestions for my family - books by Bob Branson and D A G Brown. Looking forward to the next adventures.... Jim Hi Jim, I hear what you're saying, but there's little money to be made in reality. If the market was huge, I'd take a different view, but what's the worldwide market for these? My guess is no more than 500 pieces at the most. That's just not worth chasing in my opinion. You can kid yourself that you're doing well by selling a few batches, but after that, the orders would soon run dry. I don't have any problem with anyone using the design or making them commercially if they want, as long as they credit the design to me rather than claiming it as their own.
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Post by Jim Scott on Mar 5, 2021 13:56:21 GMT
Hi Roger
I agree that nobody is going to get rich by making injectors. My suggestion was really aimed at ensuring that any commercial manufacturing would be done to the same standard as your prototypes to ensure that they perform as designed. After all it is your name that will be bandied about if it doesn't work! I think the gentleman we have in mind would certainly be capable of this and as Andy says it would fit neatly into his own portfolio and manufacturing techniques.
Of course he may wish to stay with his own designs but might be persuaded that a more basic model (only in terms of non-scale body) might be worth producing for the undoubted benefit of the wider model engineering fraternity.
Jim
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stevep
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,070
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Post by stevep on Mar 5, 2021 15:32:22 GMT
Hi Roger SNIP After all it is your name that will be bandied about if it doesn't work! SNIP Jim I remember a quote from Laurie Lawrence, after he had published his series of articles on making injectors. A visitor at an ME exhibition said "Why don't your injectors work?". Laurie replied "Mine do - why don't yours?"
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Mar 6, 2021 1:12:17 GMT
Quote "At some point, I might decide to make batches of the cones for sale, but that's probably the only commercial interest I would have". Hi Roger The availability of 'one piece' cones would certainly entice many more model engineers to make their own injectors. I will pre-order my two now...! No matter how altruistic you are there will always be someone somewhere prepared to make money at your expense. Maybe you should control this by allowing a very competent young person who is well versed in the manufacture of high quality scale components to manufacture and market them on your behalf? It could bring a very welcome supply of high quality injectors to the market in both scale and commercial simpler designs. This fascinating injector story has been running for over half a year now and has been compulsive reading. I've learned much and its even provided birthday present suggestions for my family - books by Bob Branson and D A G Brown. Looking forward to the next adventures.... Jim Hi Jim, I hear what you're saying, but there's little money to be made in reality. If the market was huge, I'd take a different view, but what's the worldwide market for these? My guess is no more than 500 pieces at the most. That's just not worth chasing in my opinion. You can kid yourself that you're doing well by selling a few batches, but after that, the orders would soon run dry. I don't have any problem with anyone using the design or making them commercially if they want, as long as they credit the design to me rather than claiming it as their own. There's clearly a market of sorts, or they wouldn't be made commercially at all. And yours have several significant USPs over those currently on the market. I suspect it is a constant slow dribble of sales in view, rather than any global total. Some of the market is made up of 'hope springs eternal' of course, due to the (alleged!) lack of reliability of the commercial products; I know of a number of owners who have bought several injectors for one loco (over a period of time) in search of more reliability. But I agree with what others have said or implied; it is the scale body that is the part that most builders can't contemplate doing, even more so than the cones; so it wouldn't make sense to market one without the other. And such a product would certainly justify a premium on the price. Gary
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,438
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Post by dscott on Mar 6, 2021 1:14:58 GMT
I met Laurie Lawrence a couple of times at said exhibition. YES I did ask him about the huge numbers of Errors on their Published Drawings in Model Engineer!!!!!!!
Remembering that an early form of copy rite or Patent was often incorporated into Drawings as found out by people building Reconstructions. They very often do not work as built. The vital piece being held in another place and probably exchanged for some money. About 1645. The Team then go and figure out what is the missing piece. I still love the various ways of getting round the Crank Patent on Beam Engines!!!
This last week I have set up the Lathe for 2 degrees and a ponder upon its accuracy? Wheels of course now delightfully delivered. Roger with his cutter Grinder set to Minutes and Seconds could well be the answer.
David and Lily.
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Post by Doug on Mar 6, 2021 9:06:54 GMT
Adam is already making 10x injector castings and surely they can be used to house the one piece cone design if wanted, so that does enable Adam to benefit already from the new design surely? I myself am humbled by Rogers work in making these changes to a quite frankly a sometimes very stayed hobby and showing “another way” of doing things and to be fair if he enjoys what he does which to me is obviously the case then all the best to him. I for one am learning an awful lot about building my speedy thanks to this thread.
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