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Post by Roger on Sept 12, 2021 14:27:41 GMT
Hi Roger....regarding small bowden cable, IIRC I got my outer tubes from Hong Kong...I would have to check but recall the tube having an ID of approx 1mm (they do go smaller but I needed to allow for negotiating around the firebox) , perhaps less....I think I used 0.5mm wire rope for the cable itself, outer tube is refrigerater pipe. Pete Hi Pete, Thanks for that, I reckon 0.5mm ought to be fine. It doesn't have to be a close fit, just enough to allow the oil to flow.
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Post by 92220 on Sept 12, 2021 18:00:52 GMT
Hi Roger.
The smallest bowden inner, that I have, measures just over 0.7mm so I'm guessing it is nominally 0.8mm diam cable. I thought I had a number of others but I can't find any other than the 0.8mm and 1mm cables.I checked on Ebay and there is a French company selling miniature bowdens from 0.4mm upwards. Check out item 154374121656 on Ebay. Also a UK company selling 0.5 and 0.8mm bowdens - Ebay item No. 131353754667.
My thin wall tubing isn't copper; it is brass, to make up the bowden cable for the whistle valve.
Hope that helps.
Bob.
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Post by Roger on Sept 12, 2021 18:32:33 GMT
Hi Roger. The smallest bowden inner, that I have, measures just over 0.7mm so I'm guessing it is nominally 0.8mm diam cable. I thought I had a number of others but I can't find any other than the 0.8mm and 1mm cables.I checked on Ebay and there is a French company selling miniature bowdens from 0.4mm upwards. Check out item 154374121656 on Ebay. Also a UK company selling 0.5 and 0.8mm bowdens - Ebay item No. 131353754667. My thin wall tubing isn't copper; it is brass, to make up the bowden cable for the whistle valve. Hope that helps. Bob. Thanks for checking Bob. If that control line cable is the size they say, it ought to do the job. I'm just trying individual strands of 0.2mm at the moment.
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Post by Roger on Sept 12, 2021 20:34:40 GMT
Here's another infrastructure project in conception. I use the 4th axis a lot, but I also use other things on the Mill, so it's a pain to have to disconnect it. I've been lifting it off the Mill with the crane and just leaving it on the floor, still powered up, but it's in the way and prone to collecting damage and dirt. So I've been offering this up to the space beside the Mill to see if there's room for a dedicated rack for it there, and it's definitely possible. When I get a minute, I'll design a bracket to securely hold it so I can remove the crane and leave it there, out of the way. These projects take time, but they repay the effort and give pleasure each time they're used. 20210912_113545 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr
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Post by Roger on Sept 12, 2021 20:57:31 GMT
Ok, I left that overnight, and no oil came through, so I assumed that the pipe was blocked. The first bend was a bit severe, so I decided to start again. I don't have any Bowden cable inner at the moment, so I thought I'd just use some pieces of 0.2mm diameter Spring Wire to see if that would work. Here are 6 pieces in the the form of three loops to give me something to pull against. As it happens, after this test bend it was easy enough to pull them out. 20210912_104952 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr I couldn't get a tight enough bend below the nut using the 3D printed former, so I decided to make a Steel one. Here I'm using the 4-Jaw to hold a short length of 8x8 Steel so that it would be true for facing off. 20210912_111820 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr Two of those were done, and set with a piece of paper between them in the Machine Vice, and the centre found. 20210912_120144 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr That was machined to give a clearance pocket for the Hex nut, and a 1.6mm diameter for the copper pipe. A small radius was filed onto the end for the bend radius. 20210912_144618 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr I should have made a piece to screw into the Hex nut, I'll do that on the next one, so it supports the pipe. 20210912_151101 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr The bend is tight enough, and I can't easily get the wires out. So I gently squeezed the bend in the vice where it had spread slightly... 20210912_151201 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr ... and the vice was used to support the Nut and copper pipe while I pulled the wires out. 20210912_171814 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr The initial bend looked like this. I didn't leave the wired in the pipe because by the time they went around the second set of tight bends, I didn't think I've be able to pull them out. 20210912_152546 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr Instead, I inserted them in the cut off pipe from the other end and added the double bend. 20210912_154036 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr The is the other handed one. 20210912_173058 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr I decided to make an adaptor for 4mm PVC pipe so I could use the Air Line or Hand Pump to check them for blockages. This one looks ok. 20210912_211304 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr So was the second one, so they are now installed on the Valve Crosshead with more Oil to see if it gets through this time. I think the answer is going to be no, because I've just tested the first pipe I made on the Hand Pump, and that's not blocked, although I don't think there's quite as much flow. We'll see. I suspect it's going to need a lighter oil on these else it's not going to do anything. I've put some oil in the other Oil Box too, and at the moment, that's not coming out either, but I'll give it until tomorrow morning before passing judgement. 20210912_212337 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr
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Post by chris vine on Sept 12, 2021 21:22:53 GMT
Hi Roger,
Very smart.
If it isn't blocked, the oil will get through. Slowly is what you want, after all. Once the engine is in steam, the oil will be much thinner, even on parts like this, away from direct heat...
Fab progress!!
Chris.
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,438
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Post by dscott on Sept 12, 2021 22:21:32 GMT
Any finer Roger and you will have to Roll your Own!! Then of course you will have to find a place for the high pressure rollers that Jewelers use with smaller and smaller groves. I made a bending fork for smokebox hinges. 2 6mm rods close together drilled into a bar in the vice. Lots of work with an adjustable spanner checked for burrs.
We look forward to every episode.
David and Lily.
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Post by Roger on Sept 12, 2021 22:22:22 GMT
Hi Roger, Very smart. If it isn't blocked, the oil will get through. Slowly is what you want, after all. Once the engine is in steam, the oil will be much thinner, even on parts like this, away from direct heat... Fab progress!! Chris. Thanks Chris. I'm wondering if the oil just gets through to the open end of the pipe and then just sits there because there's no surface for it to wick on to? I'm sure you're right about the heat, this is mechanically attached to the end of the piston valve chest, and exhaust Steam is going to bear on the exposed end of the Crosshead too. I don't suppose it will need a huge amount of oil anyway, just as long as some gets through.
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Post by steamer5 on Sept 13, 2021 3:32:07 GMT
Hi Roger, Nice work! Just a thought how warm is your shop? Given the viscosity of the oil at ambient it’s going to take awhile to get through, warming the oil will speed it up…..at least for a test.
Cheers Kerrin
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Post by andyhigham on Sept 13, 2021 7:46:20 GMT
As an experiment fill it with something like "3 in 1" oil and see if it flows through. You could also try "WD40" but that is probably too thin. It would give you an idea of viscosity vs flow
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Post by 92220 on Sept 13, 2021 8:02:11 GMT
Hi Roger. I don't know what happened but I posted these details on here last night but they obviously didn't get through. Here is the info again:- 0.5mm, 0.8mm, 1mm, 1.5mm Miniature Steel Rope Cable Model Tanks 5m or eBay item number:131353754667 The tiny telescopic brass tube was Albion Alloys Ltd. from www.scalemodelshop.co.uk/ These people also sell miniature telescopic copper tubes. If you go to the scalemodels shop site and put SFT2 into9 their search box, it comes up with telescopic tubes in various metals, down to 0.3mm OD YES. You did read that right!!! 0.3mm OD. Hope that helps. Bob.
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Post by chris vine on Sept 13, 2021 9:39:14 GMT
Hi Roger,
If you did want to make your own copper tube to smaller diameter, you wouldn't need to use rollers etc. You would just need a Draw Plate, and then pull the annealed tube through repeatedly smaller holes until it is the size you want.
Additional benefit: If you start with 1 metre of tube you will end up with something like 3 metres!!
Chris.
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Post by Roger on Sept 13, 2021 9:49:08 GMT
Hi Roger, Nice work! Just a thought how warm is your shop? Given the viscosity of the oil at ambient it’s going to take awhile to get through, warming the oil will speed it up…..at least for a test. Cheers Kerrin Hi Kerrin, It's about 22C in the workshop, so not that warm. As Chris suggests, it's definitely going to be warmer on the Locomotive. It's probably easier to put some thinner oil in to simulate that, like Andy suggests.
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Post by Roger on Sept 13, 2021 9:51:27 GMT
Hi Roger. I don't know what happened but I posted these details on here last night but they obviously didn't get through. Here is the info again:- 0.5mm, 0.8mm, 1mm, 1.5mm Miniature Steel Rope Cable Model Tanks 5m or eBay item number:131353754667 The tiny telescopic brass tube was Albion Alloys Ltd. from www.scalemodelshop.co.uk/ These people also sell miniature telescopic copper tubes. If you go to the scalemodels shop site and put SFT2 into9 their search box, it comes up with telescopic tubes in various metals, down to 0.3mm OD YES. You did read that right!!! 0.3mm OD. Hope that helps. Bob. Thanks for that Bob, I did see that on yesterday's post. I've put that on my watch list. At the moment, just putting individual wires in there seems to be working though, so I'll probably stick with that. 0.3mm OD for the wire is amazing.
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Post by Roger on Sept 13, 2021 9:54:06 GMT
Hi Roger, If you did want to make your own copper tube to smaller diameter, you wouldn't need to use rollers etc. You would just need a Draw Plate, and then pull the annealed tube through repeatedly smaller holes until it is the size you want. Additional benefit: If you start with 1 metre of tube you will end up with something like 3 metres!! Chris. Hi Chris, It would certainly be fun to do that. I'd probably have to start with different tube though, because the 1/16" stuff has a pretty thick wall. Maybe the pipe from Macc Models is different, I ought to get some to see. For the moment, I'll just accept the fact that it's over scale. If it was a super scale model, I might have been more inclined to push it a bit further, but I do want to crack on an get this finished in the next year or so.
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Post by Roger on Sept 13, 2021 11:02:00 GMT
Success! The oil had completely drained from the LH tank, reaching both sides. What's interesting is that the open one on the RH side didn't drain at all, even though the outlet fitting is open and there's definitely no obstruction. I think it's because the end of that is conical where it mates with the missing Copper pipe. It seems happy to wick out onto a flat surface, but not where there's an edge. 20210913_114919 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr A quick question... I know that the rear one of the RH pipes goes down to an oiling box next to the piston gland, so presumably the front RH pipe goes to the valve shaft. Is there a similar arrangement on that? Does anyone have a picture or Works Drawing of it? x1UuzTu by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr
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Post by silverfox on Sept 13, 2021 14:38:27 GMT
Roger
I have to confess i seem to spend more time looking and re reading your logs than on my own humble effort... As to not being superscale, i think that your 1500 will be a better model overall than Como and that is near perfection as i have seen, insomuch in that while his is a glass case loco, yours will be earing its keep.
Thank you a 100 times for showing us all the little things it really makes me want to go that yard further
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Post by Roger on Sept 13, 2021 16:15:25 GMT
Roger I have to confess i seem to spend more time looking and re reading your logs than on my own humble effort... As to not being superscale, i think that your 1500 will be a better model overall than Como and that is near perfection as i have seen, insomuch in that while his is a glass case loco, yours will be earing its keep. Thank you a 100 times for showing us all the little things it really makes me want to go that yard further Thanks for that, you're very kind. The truth is that mine is wrong from the Chassis onwards, because it's not to the Works Drawings and it messes up everything that follows to a greater and lesser degree. There's an awful lot wrong with it, but I've masked as much as possible by making the detail as plausible as possible. You're absolutely right about it earning its keep, it's designed to be practical to maintain, albeit more fiddly in places than simpler designs. Anyone can do these things if you have the equipment and it pleases you to do it. None of it is especially difficult once you've done a few pieces. It is time consuming though, so you need to really want to do it and have the patience.
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Post by 92220 on Sept 13, 2021 18:07:31 GMT
Success! The oil had completely drained from the LH tank, reaching both sides. What's interesting is that the open one on the RH side didn't drain at all, even though the outlet fitting is open and there's definitely no obstruction. I think it's because the end of that is conical where it mates with the missing Copper pipe. It seems happy to wick out onto a flat surface, but not where there's an edge. 20210913_114919 by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr A quick question... I know that the rear one of the RH pipes goes down to an oiling box next to the piston gland, so presumably the front RH pipe goes to the valve shaft. Is there a similar arrangement on that? Does anyone have a picture or Works Drawing of it? x1UuzTu by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr Hi Roger. If you look carefully at your last photo, you can see where the copper pipe goes down to lubricate the valve rod boss, as you guessed. If you look carefully at the photo you can just see another pipe going down behind it, so I would guess that is the second pipe, going to lubricate the piston rod boss. Both rod bosses are lubricated on my works drawing, so I would guess your loco is the same. It's logical as these must be high load points. Mine are pressure fed but yours are not. I woul;d guess that is because the 9f was designed for long distance running and the 15xx was designed for a lot of stop/start work, so hand lubricating/filling oil boxes, was relatively easy to keep on top of. Bob.
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Post by Roger on Sept 13, 2021 19:11:22 GMT
Thanks Bob, It doesn't look like there's anything to the left of the valve gland, so I presume there's just a hole in the top of the gland for the pipe to go into. <Edit> That's what I've done tonight. I've drilled a 1.6mm hole 1.8mm deep to take the pipe, and a 1mm through hole to let the oil out.
Looking at where the rear pipe is, I think it must immediately go over the back side of the crosshead casting rather than down where the other one goes. I don't know if there's room for a special box in front of the the main piston gland, it's all pretty tight there. I'll probably just drill a hole in the gland, like the piston valve gland, if there's no room.
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