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Post by steamcoal on Nov 22, 2014 5:18:47 GMT
Yet another question I need to ask.
I am going to fully repaint my 3.5" Maisie and would like to ask those in the "know" as to the colour code in order to have the GNR Apple Green paint manufactured.
Firstly I need to say that I cannot source Phoenix brand paints in New Zealand and want to have the colour put into cans for spraying.
I need to find the RAL colour code for the colour. This is an international coding for paint manufacture. I have sent a message to Phoenix Paints but expect they will not divulge this information. I also phoned the NRM in York and they took a message. Subsequently I ask a model engineer who has made up this colour or knows the code so I can progress the repaint.
The paint needed is only for the Maisie green and not the frames but will be including the splashers and running boards, which includes black.
I would be most appreciative if someone can point me in the right direction.
Hayden.
p.s I am slightly colour blind but just a splash!
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Nov 22, 2014 9:39:48 GMT
hi hayden,
im no GNR or LNER expert, but GNR livery for the large boilered Ivatts wasnt 'apple green'.
neither were the outside of the frames black.
or do you mean you want to paint the loco in LNER livery which is 'apple green'?
the main GNR green was known as 'grass green' which then had a dark green border.
cheers,
julian
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2014 13:07:44 GMT
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Nov 22, 2014 15:35:03 GMT
quick break from leaning over the lathe...
im afraid i didnt think much of the wiki page quoted by pete! all the railway colours im dead sure about i looked at and none of the swatches were anything near what i would regard as the correct colour even allowing for the vagaries of looking at a small sample.
hayden, there is a 'grass green' in the RAL code (RAL 6010). whether this is the same as GNR 'grass green' i cant state for certain. the RAL code is limited to only 193 colours and for example nothing even approximates to post-1904 GWR green or for that matter many other shades including the dark green that is a border on the GNR livery.
as im typing this it occurs to me that the 'green' in the long bands on this page is pretty much GNR grass green and also has the same intensity and depth of colour! the 'reply' box is a darker green and something just a bit darker and deeper would match pretty well the borders.
cup of tea finished, now back to the workshop!
cheers,
julian
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Post by goldstar31 on Nov 22, 2014 16:16:42 GMT
I'm not a railway buff but old enough to have seen a few trains- clears throat- and continues.
Let's do the history of paint manufacture first. Did the paint manufacturers actually have any scientific method of establishing a shade in the days of GNR? Somehow, I doubt it. Does anyone know of a paint manufacturer that existed then? How big was the firm? What were its facilities?
So was paint colour - guess work? Again, what was the colour of green- which is a very fugitive colour after it has been rubbed down -with oily cloths?
Oddly, I know where the LNER paint was made- in say 1900- or some of it. let's say enough of it to paint all the stations from say Berwick on Tweed to York.
Today, after the death of the guy in - clears throat again- who died in 1939. I suspect that some of you are guessing.
Regards
Norman
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Post by donashton on Nov 22, 2014 16:35:41 GMT
Does size matter? My understanding is that a one foot square panel painted in Caley blue would strike most people as black!
Don.
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uuu
Elder Statesman
your message here...
Posts: 2,808
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Post by uuu on Nov 22, 2014 17:15:28 GMT
Johnston in his "history of light and colour measurement" describes spectrophotmetric analysis in the U.S. for measuring the colour of margarine, paint, cement, tobacco and porcelain in 1907-1921. In 1927 the NPL had developed a set of standard paint colours for the British Engineering Standards Association. More here: History of Light and Colour measurementWilf |
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Post by steamcoal on Nov 22, 2014 18:01:14 GMT
Dear Fellows.
Thankyou for your information.
I wonder if a better way to ask the question should have been " if you have to paint a "Maisie" what colour would you paint it?"
The "Apple Green " was as mentionied by the NRM on their website in relation to # 251. Mostly likely a generic reference. Not many Kiwi apples are green these days! Grannysmith anyone?
Looking at RAL6010 is a place to start, add in 10% variation for my red/green colour blindedness , another 5% for the computer screen depiction and then my amateur painting skills, then mostly it is in the eye of the beholder!
Chocolate black for frames I know but I think that is going too far for my needs. Not intending a bulk strip and as the boiler will come off it will be plenty for me to do. I will also be flushing the inner workings with a very mild degreaser to remove gunge and oils. I do not want to dissolve the painted surfaces but might touch up the frames
I see the article by John Richardson in the M.E on his 5" Atlantic but it looks a little too bright for me. Granted that an oily rag over the years dulls off the surface.
I would be interested in the NRM and Pheonix references but it could be a never ending quest.
Thanks so much.
Hayden
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Post by steamcoal on Nov 22, 2014 18:10:47 GMT
Hi
What does this look like?
Pantone 363 ?
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Post by goldstar31 on Nov 22, 2014 18:50:47 GMT
I can understand all of this but the question is 'did the paint manufacturers have these gadgets' or was it that people- lived over the shop?
Perhaps, back to Ishihara,eh?
Norman
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Post by steamcoal on Nov 22, 2014 20:20:48 GMT
Norman.
Unfortunately the paint manufactures usual have only a computer database for the colours so it is easier to give them the number rather than say "sort of like that one". Remember they might be colour blind also!!
A pig and a poke will see us there. I am sure that world will not end if i get it wrong.
Hayden
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Post by ejparrott on Nov 23, 2014 8:36:50 GMT
Let's do the history of paint manufacture first. Did the paint manufacturers actually have any scientific method of establishing a shade in the days of GNR? My understanding was that the railway companies made their own paint, and didn't buy it in from an outside source. The paints were mixed by weight of components, which could be regualted very well. |
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Post by steamcoal on Nov 23, 2014 10:13:44 GMT
I have asked John Richardson if he can offer any help on the subject after I read his article in the ME about the final completion and painting of his 5" Atlantic. His paint will have come from someplace no doubt.
Hayden
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Post by ettingtonliam on Nov 23, 2014 20:57:00 GMT
Let's do the history of paint manufacture first. Did the paint manufacturers actually have any scientific method of establishing a shade in the days of GNR? My understanding was that the railway companies made their own paint, and didn't buy it in from an outside source. The paints were mixed by weight of components, which could be regualted very well. Yes I have read that the GWR, at least, mixed their paints up from powder components, to a standard colour card, but after the card had been in a grubby pocket for a while, it wasn't necessarily the same colour it had been when new --. Undoubtedly, there would have been some degree of individualism between different paint shop foremen as well. Wolverhampton, when it still painted locos, used a different colour green to Swindon apparently. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 21:29:03 GMT
Wolverhampton, when it still painted locos, used a different colour green to Swindon apparently. Same goes for the LNER....Darlington having a different shade of green to Doncaster.... |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 0:33:28 GMT
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Post by doubletop on Nov 24, 2014 8:58:41 GMT
Hayden I've no idea what RAL6010 or GNR/LNER apple green looks like and risk of a proliferation of "green" locos in NZ here's my Simplex done in Wattyl Epoxy Enamel Deep Brunswick Green  It comes in 500ml cans and 300ml aerosol spray cans. Available at Supercheap, Mitre 10 and Placemakers etc  They also do Brunswick Green link to WattylIt doesn't need undercoat, an etch primer is available, it goes on well but does take about 16hrs to cure. The Dart I'm doing will also be the same colour Pete |
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Post by steamcoal on Nov 24, 2014 9:40:53 GMT
Hagley and Pete. This is a Yellow green RAL6018 which might be a bit lighter in the yellow shades, ( to my eyes anyway!) www.e-paint.co.uk/Lab_values.asp?cRange=RAL%20Classic&cRef=RAL%206018&cDescription=Yellow%20greenI will go and have a test can made up in the most appropriate "best" guess RAL363 and RAL 6018 .Considering the value of the engine and the fact that I may never paint it again I think I can afford to test it first. If nothing else I will have two cans of spray paint to paint a model boat with!! Never seen a green aeroplane? Pete , That rust kill is good stuff but I usually paint it on my forktruck at work or trailer. Sure in the hands of an expert anything is possible. Hayden |
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Post by steamcoal on Nov 24, 2014 9:50:01 GMT
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Post by steamcoal on Nov 24, 2014 9:55:16 GMT
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