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Post by John Baguley on Feb 21, 2017 0:04:38 GMT
Hi John, a nice looking shaper, I know some people are not devotees but us older apprentice trained members remember them with some fondness, also useful for cutting keyways. Regards Paul Hi Paul, I hadn't originally planned to have a shaper but the Boxford came up at a price I couldn't refuse! I was introduced to the shaper when at school doing metalwork, must be getting on for 50 years ago now. The school workshop had quite a big shaper (can't remember what sort) and I was allowed to use it for one of my projects. I don't think they trusted anyone else with it! They are a grossly underated piece of kit and can produce much better finishes than a milling machine. John
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Post by atgordon on Feb 21, 2017 1:37:05 GMT
All the spare wall space now has shelves, drawer units, and storage bins fitted wherever possible and the wooden drawers under the micro mill have just been replaced with two Bisley 10 drawer units. The wooden drawers will be fitted under the workbench to add even more storage for tools etc. John, I think I noticed that the 8mm and 6mm storage pots are in the wrong order, and there was a small stain on the floor ... that must have been the light ... Great job all round!
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Post by atgordon on Feb 21, 2017 1:57:09 GMT
I hadn't originally planned to have a shaper but the Boxford came up at a price I couldn't refuse! I was introduced to the shaper when at school doing metalwork, must be getting on for 50 years ago now. The school workshop had quite a big shaper (can't remember what sort) and I was allowed to use it for one of my projects. I don't think they trusted anyone else with it! They are great machines, although difficult to find (cheap or otherwise) in the US. I'd love to have a Boxford or similar having taught a lot of kids metalwork using that same model. When I was at college, we had a 24" Elliott hydraulic shaper, and once you got off bench fitting, it was the first machine you were allowed to use. A temp lecturer was working that term, and had never used that shaper, which was a big beast of a thing. He gave us the spiel and setup a bar for a facing cut, and then stepped back and hit the big green start button. Motor sounds from the shaper, but no movement. So he went over to the control panel on the front of the machine and bend down to look at the controls; at that time, the hydraulic pressure had built up and the ram moved forward swiftly and silently ... knocking him out cold and imparted a good sized gash on his noggin where the side of the ram hit him, luckily, he was well away from the cutting tool. From that time onwards, he was teased until he left at the end of the term; "Mr Parry, how do hydraulics work? ...." It was a great machine, you could launch 0.5" wide x .200" deep very hot shavings around the machine shop in random directions!
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Post by GWR 101 on Feb 21, 2017 9:42:13 GMT
There was one of the mechanical ones in one workshops that I worked in that was wired up wrong and was running backwards, took one of the older hands to notice it. Regards Paul
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 9:56:15 GMT
Talking of metal shapers, I have my little 'Adept no.2' manual metal shaper all ready to go...originally bought and restored to broach 4472's crank and wheels but as shown in my build thread, I went another direction in the end. cheers Pete
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Post by Jim on Feb 21, 2017 10:02:17 GMT
That's a very neat bit of kit Pete, the sort of thing I'd like to have in my workshop even though I don't have a use for one at the moment. It just looks nice. Jim
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 10:08:07 GMT
cheers Jim, it does look nice doesn't it?.. , I'm sure I'll use it at some time, need to make up some tool holders first. The guy that I bought it from was an interesting chap, he restores and maintains vintage 'Bugatti's'... when I visited to pick up the shaper he had 3 cars in, one of which was being prepared for the Goodwood festival of speed...he also drives a classic front engined Porsche, clearly a man of impeccable taste.... Pete
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Post by GWR 101 on Feb 21, 2017 12:42:12 GMT
We have one of those hand powered ones under the bench in the club workshop which came from a deceased members estate. I am just waiting for the day that the club decides to sell it. Regards Paul
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Post by steamlaser on Feb 21, 2017 15:39:18 GMT
Hi Norm, How can it be described as "rude" to suggest an enclosed bricked space with no light is akin to a 'Victorian prison cell' for solitary confinement? I have been in many such prison cells, not as an inmate, but in a professional role. It is a very accurate description. It isnt "rude" to describe same. It is a simple statement of fact. Have you ever been into a UK prison and seen the conditions of the old Victorian prisons on the 'Rule 42' wing and solitary confinement wing? I have been into at least 5 on a substantial number of occasions. I have visited UK prisons over 400 times. I have always been lucky to have lived in homes with a very nice outlook and pleasant locations. Others may not be so fortunate in their forced choice of workshop accomodation; but that does not require that you, Norm, need to personally denigrate me on this forum. Cheers, Julian I have also had the dubious pleasure of visiting Victorian Prisons on numerous occasions (with keys) and can confirm that despite what you read in the popular press, they are pretty awful places.
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Post by roger the dodger on Feb 21, 2017 17:34:29 GMT
My new workshop will not resemble a prison I can assure you. Never been in a prison. Might use this area as my store with plenty of light and racking. Can't wait to get on with it. But have not yet got the keys. It comes with yard space for about two vehicles just in front which is then fenced off plus parking. The major downside is, it is single phase only and every thing I got is three phase. So I might have to sell some items of machinery. First thing to go would be my 3 phase compressor.
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Post by atgordon on Feb 21, 2017 21:26:47 GMT
Talking of metal shapers, I have my little 'Adept no.2' manual metal shaper all ready to go...originally bought and restored to broach 4472's crank and wheels but as shown in my build thread, I went another direction in the end. What a beautifully restored machine, and very handy too!
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Post by atgordon on Feb 21, 2017 22:02:44 GMT
The major downside is, it is single phase only and every thing I got is three phase. So I might have to sell some items of machinery. First thing to go would be my 3 phase compressor. Get a VFD and your problems are solved (plus the bonus is that you can control the motor speed with the VFD rather than belts!). About GBP 100 for a 3HP unit that will go from 240V single phase to 220v 3 phase
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Post by roger the dodger on Feb 21, 2017 22:57:04 GMT
I followed the link put them on watch and will probably go that way thanks. I am familiar with them as I looked into them when on my first workshop build seen above. Luckily for me the Landlord's site electrician fitted a three phase supply into my shop with a meter. But there is no chance of that in this new place I've been told. As costs far too much. Are they long lasting units?
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Post by atgordon on Feb 22, 2017 0:39:26 GMT
Are they long lasting units? Never used one: though a lot of the home-brew CNC sites in the US speak very highly of using VFDs. I know nothing about the unit I referenced: I just wanted to show you something that would work. If I was going to buy a VFD, I'd do more research, but since I have 10HP 3-phase converter (easy to do in the US where 2 115V legs are fed into each house), I don't have a need for a VFD. If my Kondia Mill CNC controller croaks, that may change!
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Post by Roger on Feb 22, 2017 8:58:40 GMT
I have two VFDs on my grinder, one on the mill, one on the lathe and one for the hydrovane compressor. I've never had any issues with any of them. We used to use them on machine tools too, and never had a failure. The ones I use are from Control Techniques, I can't comment on how good others are. The cheapest of the cheap Chinese ones might not be as well made, I've seen some pretty horrific electronics inside other products. It's probably worth going to a mainstream supplier who will give you a warranty.
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oldnorton
Statesman
5" gauge LMS enthusiast
Posts: 696
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Post by oldnorton on Feb 22, 2017 9:42:49 GMT
VFDs are excellent, but if you have several items of 3 phase machinery then the cheapest (and easiest) solution might be to install a single rotary converter and wire each machine to that. You will be able to run more than one machine simultaneously, but up to the current limit of the converter. However, unless it is CNC, the need to run more than one is perhaps unusual for a lone worker. It is also quite likely that one or more of the current motors cannot be rewired to 3 phase 220/240v which rules out a VFD for that machine, unless a new motor is fitted. People have made their own rotary converters and it apparently provides a decent smooth supply.
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Post by atgordon on Feb 22, 2017 13:18:14 GMT
People have made their own rotary converters and it apparently provides a decent smooth supply. Can't speak for the UK, but in the US, if you are using a rotary converter, the "derived leg" or third phase will rarely hold the notional voltage under all circumstances. Run capacitors are used to control the voltage within certain parameters, but if the RC is used for more than one machine (and so different loads) you have to select which machine gets the "closer" voltage. For non-CNC use, this is academic (well, it has been for me to date). For CNC, you have to ensure that any step down transformer that powers the CNC controller is fed with the two good legs in the US, and since it is looking for 208v, you could use main 240v in the UK. The point being, don't use derived voltage from the converter to power the CNC controller.
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uuu
Elder Statesman
your message here...
Posts: 2,814
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Post by uuu on Feb 22, 2017 14:15:48 GMT
I've bought eight or nine VFD/inverters off ebay and have never had trouble with them (except one which I blew up when the motor shorted with swarf).
Mostly they've been "new-old-stock" rather than used. I've stuck to Mitsubishi brand as a safe choice, and to keep the parameter settings consistent.
John the Pump had an old inverter on his mill expire - it had run for many years, so he wasn't upset.
Wilf
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Post by Jo on Feb 22, 2017 18:24:24 GMT
Can't speak for the UK, but in the US, if you are using a rotary converter, the "derived leg" or third phase will rarely hold the notional voltage under all circumstances. Those were yesterday's static converters. The modern rotary converter is a rotary transformer there is no such thing as a derived phase any longer. Jo
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Post by atgordon on Feb 22, 2017 21:03:46 GMT
Can't speak for the UK, but in the US, if you are using a rotary converter, the "derived leg" or third phase will rarely hold the notional voltage under all circumstances. Those were yesterday's static converters. The modern rotary converter is a rotary transformer there is no such thing as a derived phase any longer. Jo This might be a terminology thing, US-UK, but static converters are very different from rotary converters: static converters create a "phantom" third leg for starting, but then run the 3-phase motor on 2-phases - a 3-phase motor, once started will run OK but with much reduced power output (less that 2/3 rds rated power from what I've read). The rotary phase converters also use starting capacitors to start 3-phases motor, but in this case, the phase converter uses a 3-phase slave motor that is 1.35 * desired HP, to generate the third leg. Static phase converters are to be avoided at all costs! I believe they can lead to damage of windings when motors are worked hard using only 2-phases. You can see my 10HP rotary converter and its 12.5HP slave motor below: until recently, rotary converters were the only economic way of powering a 3-phase workshop fed with domestic power. Now VFDs are so cheap, no one uses rotary converters any longer. But if ain't broke .... Just looked at the Ampair Energy UK rotary phase converter site: it operates just the same as mine, except that 2 phases are derived! And I can't find anything on UK Google that references rotary transformers: do they exist?
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