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Post by huttcourt on Dec 30, 2016 19:24:56 GMT
Full Retraction has been placed on many sites by the Offending person...... the shovel is clean-ish but the s.h.one.T sticks ...anyway had a great Xmas and will get into the new year with delivery to Belgium,Italy and S Korea of wonderful locos ..we are one of the few countries that even have a Club testing system as ours...Have had many locos with current certificates that were not fit for purpose or even safe...we should adopt the French system in that when a second hand car/or steam loco is sold a new certificate should be issued..thats why Ian Farrence of FARNCARE BOILER Testing was so use full-also clubs should make there testing available to private/other owners-not all are club types...one guy in london purcased a loco from me joined a club and was charged £250 for testing his engine...???there has to be a better way....?
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jackrae
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Post by jackrae on Dec 30, 2016 20:11:02 GMT
I thoroughly agree with the concept of certification requiring renewal on change of ownership. A boiler test certificate is, like a vehicle MOT, only good on the day it was tested. On the basis that a club member/ owner acts responsibly it is presumed the boiler has not been mistreated between tests. However, when a boiler is purchased from a 'sales' agent, even if it comes with a certificate, there is no way of knowing how it has been treated and what repairs, if any, have been conducted since the certificate was issued.
However, a club thinking of participation in issuing certificates on a commercial basis to non-members, or in fact to individual members who it knows are using the club as a route to them selling boilers with certs as a commercial enterprise, really will have to carefully consider its standing with respect to its relationship with its insurers, particularly as it may have liability for boiler failure in circumstances of use under which it has no control.
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denis M
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Post by denis M on Dec 30, 2016 20:14:25 GMT
Clubs and societies cannot charge for a bolier test under the present scheme as this makes them commercial I believe. Perhaps they charged him for something else.
Denis M
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Post by houstonceng on Dec 30, 2016 23:06:35 GMT
Of course, anyone could join a club and pay his subs and then get a boiler certificate and then never, actually, attend any club meetings. In many cases, subs would be cheaper than paying for a commercial boiler test.
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jma1009
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Post by jma1009 on Dec 30, 2016 23:51:16 GMT
I think most clubs are pretty canny when these things arise. There is usually a proposal and seconder section on a membership form, and the whole application is then considered by the committee. I remember one dodgy commercial outfit of one guy being rejected by the committee of the IWMES many years ago, as I was Secretary at the time and had to record everything scrupulously.
Denis M is quite correct that the UK boiler regs prohibit any payment for a boiler test.
Cheers, Julian
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Post by houstonceng on Dec 31, 2016 0:05:53 GMT
I think most clubs are pretty canny when these things arise. There is usually a proposal and seconder section on a membership form, and the whole application is then considered by the committee. Yep ! Same in our MES. But doesn't stop someone joining who passes the committee stage, but only wants to join for the boiler test to sell a loco. We used to require a 6 month probation period, so we could get rid of anyone who didn't participate in the Society maintenance work and social activities. That rule got "dropped". We often have applicants who move into the area, want to take up Model engineering and don't know anyone in the Society. We welcome these persons on trust - usually sponsored by the Chair and Secretary - and hope that they will be active members. But - - - - who can tell ? Let's face it, the retired membership fee in our Society can be used up in tea drunk at the meetings 4 times a week (or 5 when there's a children's birthday party to run), so the boiler test is considerably less than a commercial one.
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Tony K
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Post by Tony K on Jan 2, 2017 9:36:10 GMT
I think most clubs are pretty canny when these things arise. There is usually a proposal and seconder section on a membership form, and the whole application is then considered by the committee. Yep ! Same in our MES. But doesn't stop someone joining who passes the committee stage, but only wants to join for the boiler test to sell a loco. We used to require a 6 month probation period, so we could get rid of anyone who didn't participate in the Society maintenance work and social activities. That rule got "dropped". I can see houston's point about what could happen, but mostly it doesn't. Julian's point is well made and I would take it a stage further and say it would become obvious what was happening if someone was on-the-make and could be acted upon e.g. not test his models, expel him - after the usual warnings, reasonings and niceties of course. No doubt barrack room lawyers would say it is not in the rules, but there is always room for judgement - something which seems to be dying out. I would want to resist the temptation to make a fashionable response and restrict everyone just because one person pushes his luck.
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Post by houstonceng on Jan 2, 2017 13:24:01 GMT
The main reason we dropped the 6 month probation was because it was thought that the proposer and seconder wouldn't offer anyone for membership that wasn't likely to join in and be accepted. In any case, the committtee still have to ratify the membership and, since committee meetings are every other month, prospective members usually wait a couple of months for that to happen. During this period, we can assess their involvement.
We do have a rule that allows members to be expelled if they bring disrepute to themselves or the Society and that, we think, covers any circumstances that would warrant expelling a member.
So far, we haven't had anyone join just in to get a boiler certificate, but we do have a number of aged members, some of whom only come once a year to get their boiler certificate renewed - and some who just come along to the AGM to pay their subs. Most of these were active members back when Pointius was a pilot, so good luck to them.
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jma1009
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Post by jma1009 on Jan 2, 2017 20:41:47 GMT
I dont think per se there is anything wrong in a member joining just to take advantage of the boiler test procedure. These days you need a steam test as part of this process, so at least you see the loco in steam.
The problem is if that member's sole intention in joining is to obtain a club certificate to sell on what he has acquired at a premium.
This is a bit off topic but I have been a member of 2 clubs where for membership there was a distinct requirement for active involvement in the club. In my case I think I satisfied the requirements shovelling and mixing concrete and laying track panels weekend after weekend and in the week too. But I was younger then. Ive been involved in 3 club track builds. I dont want to do a fourth as a prerequisite to a probationary period of club membership!
Cheers, Julian
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Post by chris vine on Jan 2, 2017 21:05:48 GMT
I can see the advantage to the club of only accepting members who actively work to help.
However the other side of it is if a club had thousands of members who just paid their annual sub and then didn't turn up for anything. That could be regarded as a good thing!
Maybe the worst end result is having lots of members who pay, but don't help. They just come along to use the facilities and track which everyone else has worked hard to create and maintain. I guess this is for each club to work out.
Maybe x laps of the track for y hours of input!!
Chris. PS, I notice that we have gone rather off-topic on this....
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Tony K
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Post by Tony K on Jan 3, 2017 9:23:16 GMT
.... I notice that we have gone rather off-topic on this.... Morning Chris - and everyone else of course. When I was awaiting a train which I thought was late I enquired of a station person as to why this was so. "The train is not late sir - it has been re-timed" was the answer. Similarly, we are not off-topic, the topic has been changed.
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smallbrother
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Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
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Post by smallbrother on Jan 3, 2017 10:18:08 GMT
What is a reasonable input to a club?
As we get older we (well I seem to have had more than my fair share anyway) encounter a lot of problems which render us as next to useless in the physical work sense.
I agreed with the committee to pay quite a lot more that the membership fee to try and compensate a bit.
Pete.
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gwr7800
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Post by gwr7800 on Jan 3, 2017 11:11:58 GMT
I can see the advantage to the club of only accepting members who actively work to help. However the other side of it is if a club had thousands of members who just paid their annual sub and then didn't turn up for anything. That could be regarded as a good thing! Maybe the worst end result is having lots of members who pay, but don't help. They just come along to use the facilities and track which everyone else has worked hard to create and maintain. I guess this is for each club to work out. Maybe x laps of the track for y hours of input!! Chris. PS, I notice that we have gone rather off-topic on this.... Yes I agree I was the secretary to a model aircraft and helicopter club a few years ago the membership got to around 250 members, we considered capping the membership due to the fact both our flying sites would be congested, however we spoke at length to the pros and cons and decided if we got 10% of the members at either site we were lucky, so we just took the money! Most members just turned up for agms and the occasional meeting! The model engineering club I belong to now has about 30 members the same faces turn up every Sunday during running season however we are lucky if we get 10! Yes off topic but I normally am! Cheers Chris
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jem
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Post by jem on Jan 3, 2017 17:32:14 GMT
May be those who work hard at the club, should pay less for the following year membership
Jem
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Post by heronsgate on Jan 14, 2017 11:08:21 GMT
Can I throw this scenario into the pot please. Imagine a prospective locomotive buyer scans the internet and associated dealers for a possible purchase. He, the buyer is a member of one of our many clubs in the UK. When found his possible purchase is checked to be still for sale from the dealer and a visit to view arranged. Once viewed and satisfied he asks about boiler certification, the dealer says there is no problem as long as he 'the buyer' agrees to be made an honorary member of the club he 'the dealer' is a/chief boiler tester for, then a certificate can be issued from the club certificate pad. No membership fee is taken and finally money changes hands and a certificate issued dated on that day despite a test(?) being supposedly carried some days previously. Some may argue this is within the guidelines given but personally I feel that as the dealer is selling locomotives for a living he should not be using club registered certificates as he obviously is/has done. The dealer also writes out a Written Scheme of Examination Certificate despite no history of said locomotive/boiler being present at any time. Most, I am sure, boiler testers in many clubs/societies in the UK do their very best to work carefully within the system, a system many have secured over years of dedication and debate with the HSE and Insurance Companies, the actions of a few could have a devastating and adverse effect if things get out of hand. Your views on this scenario would be appreciated even though investigations are continuing I am told. Thanks for your time.
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jackrae
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Post by jackrae on Jan 14, 2017 17:37:33 GMT
The issued cert isn't worth the paper it's printed on. That's the same as going to a dodgy garage who 'sells' you an MOT certificate for your old banger.
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jma1009
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Post by jma1009 on Jan 14, 2017 21:23:10 GMT
My take on this is rather different. In most club rules there is a prohibition from any member making any financial gain from being a club member. If the 'club' is a company there is also usually a similar provision.
heronsgate's above example today would prevent a club boiler inspector issuing boiler certs for locos he was a dealer of where he had a financial interest. Plus a club boiler inspector cannot certify his own boilers in most clubs, so why more than one club boiler inspector is appointed.
There is a clear conflict of interests with any club boiler inspector being a 'dealer' and certifying locos he has bought for re-sale on a regular commercial basis.
Cheers, Julian
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Post by Cro on Jan 14, 2017 22:37:13 GMT
With regards to the procedure spoken of above I know exactly who you are referring to and it's not quite how it happens and as far as I am aware every boiler test is videoed for evidence purposes so if a test cannot be carried out in front of the customer for what ever reason but proof needs to be provided it can be.
If the dealer is the boiler inspector for that club then there should be no question around their competence. If the club deem it satisfactory then there should also be no issue from external parties. The dealer, despite technically owning the locos, cannot test his own and therefore cannot put his own name down on a certificate but this way allows the new owner to get a loco with a brand new ticket in their name.
Just to make it clear this dealer is not responsible for the fake certificates in question.
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jma1009
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Post by jma1009 on Jan 14, 2017 23:11:34 GMT
Hi Adam,
I dont want to be pedantic, but I think your statement
"If the dealer is the boiler inspector for that club then there should be no question around their competance"
is open to question.
I can think of quite a few club boiler inspectors who hold their position by a show of hands at an AGM due to influence or other reasons. A precise analysis of that person's capabilities or otherwise by the committee beforehand, and only a proposal by the committee, did not occur!
In my last club the boiler inspector was someone who hadnt to the best of my knowledge ever built a boiler! His background was electronics in BT. He did not know what J-M silverflo 55 or silverfo 24 was. A reference to sifbronze had to be referred back to the Northern Association for their views.
He soft soldered steam pipes to injectors and steam brakes.
Thankfully most other clubs have extremely competant club boiler inspectors!
Cheers, Julian
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Post by Cro on Jan 14, 2017 23:14:36 GMT
Julian,
I meant in theoretical terms, don't get me wrong we have one who hasn't got a clue and never built a boiler but he somehow is.
I know this guy personally so can say I know he is more than competent and his colleague is also and external good and well proven engineer so between them they are perfectly qualified to provide sound, trust worthy tests.
Adam
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