|
|
Post by GeorgeRay on Oct 6, 2016 19:35:35 GMT
Over the last three weeks I have been involved in trying to get to the bottom of a fake/forged boiler certificate for a locomotive purchased on eBay. Not by me I add.
The Boiler certificate was allegedly issued by the Andover Society, I became involved as the holder of the records of boilers that have been tested by Andover. I was given a certificate number which did not correspond with any certificate issued by us. When the scan of the certificate reached me it was for a locomotive previously owned by an Andover club member that he had disposed of without a valid certificate earlier this year. I was amazed however to find that I was shown as the boiler inspector together with another member of the Andover club as a witness and that the test had taken place just after the loco had been transferred. Further examination showed that the certificate number was handwritten and the WSE number was also handwritten but was also not a genuine number. The Certificate did not have a boiler capacity shown nor the bar litres. Quite clearly whoever forged the certificate did not know how it should be filled in because there were other anomalies obvious to anyone who knows how the certificate is intended to be completed.
Then last week looking through the locos on eBay I came across a Rob Roy advertised with a boiler certificate not however claiming to be from Andover this time and the picture of the certificate indicated that exactly the same form of fakery had taken place, the handwriting looked very similar and there were similar errors in its completion.
It looks as if a blank certificate had been copied in both cases and then the details entered from other previous certificates or the blue card.
eBay have been informed by the unfortunate purchaser of the first loco who has received a repayment from eBay because of reasons unconnected with the certificate, but can I give a heads up to anyone going down the route of buying on eBay to make sure that if it is claimed to have an 'in-date certificate' that the certificate is seen and confirmed genuine before parting with any money.
The Northern Association of Model Engineers website contains a warning about this.
George Ray
|
|
|
|
Post by John Baguley on Oct 7, 2016 0:03:34 GMT
I've had a similar warning. I've had a look at the Rob Roy certificates and they are obviously blatant forgeries. Apart from the hand written serial numbers, the real certificates have narrower margins down the side (especially the Written Scheme certificate) and also have two punched holes down the LH side for storing in a ring binder. They should also have perforations down the LH side where they are detached from the book.
John
|
|
|
|
Post by steamcoal on Oct 7, 2016 0:35:40 GMT
Can I ask if a UK Federation boiler cert can be verified in any way, by e-mail or phone call request.
Can someone explain simply the paper trail procedure that the Southern and Northern Assn undertake for a tested boilers paperwork.Who holds the records, clubs or the Federation and how long does it take for the boiler record to make to the records department if there is one, i.e the Association.
Lets say I see a loco for sale, and I get sent a copy of the current certificate, who can I call to verify it? Maybe not the issuer( person) as he may be the forger.
Any thoughts?
And yes I have bought locos and boilers from the UK,mostly commercial made ones just for personal satisfaction.
|
|
jackrae
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,333
|
Post by jackrae on Oct 7, 2016 9:01:40 GMT
This also raises the question as to what a "bought" certificate is worth unless the new owner has his own personal liability insurance for the boiler. Certificates are issued by clubs for club members and as such are relevant to the club insurance. If an engine and certificate are bought "outwith" a club then I would suggest the certificate is of little worth other than as part of a historical paper trail - unless the buyer is a member of another club in which case its insurance will cover.
|
|
|
|
Post by standardsteam on Oct 7, 2016 12:12:16 GMT
Whilst a paper trail may be archaic it's proved it's worth here, but as noted makes it near impossible for any buyer to check the validity without first seeing the certificate and then contacting club volunteers. Maybe it's time the Federations gave thought to issuing (and I caveat this by saying I know nothing of the current system of certification) fixed number series to clubs and at least the cert number can be connected with an issuing club with an online lookup. If the club submits returns it could be then known a few facts a) how many boiler certs have been issued, b) in what year they've been issued - with further work this could be turned into a searchable database useful for tracking thefts and previous ownerships...?
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2016 13:16:33 GMT
Maybe it's time the Federations gave thought to issuing (and I caveat this by saying I know nothing of the current system of certification) fixed number series to clubs and at least the cert number can be connected with an issuing club with an online lookup. Actually, both NAMES and SFMES do keep a record of the blocks of certificate numbers issued to individual clubs. Unfortunately, the trail stops there, and they have no way of knowing which certificates have actually been issued. Under the 2006 scheme, there was a tear-off slip at the bottom of the hydraulic test certificate, to be returned to the relevant organisation (but oddly, not for the steam test certificate). Under the current (2012) scheme, there is a pink copy of the WSE that has to be returned, but nothing more. From this you can deduce that the knowledge base is limited to which boilers are in existence, and nothing more. My good friend Mr Mayall of the SFMES continues to receive the pink copies, but I understand that NAMES do not require them and have told their member clubs to just tear the pink copy up. All very lamentable. The best advice when buying a boiler is to ask to see the paperwork, and if it appears suspicious in any way, to check it out with the club which issued the certificate before parting with any money. A forged certificate could be hiding a dangerous defect. |
|
jackrae
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,333
|
Post by jackrae on Oct 7, 2016 14:59:51 GMT
Certificates are are also quite flimsy, so if it appears to be "normal" printing paper it is a forgery (or copy)
|
|
|
|
Post by GeorgeRay on Oct 7, 2016 19:18:37 GMT
NAME require a detailed return for every hydraulic test carried out but don't require the pink copy. The return can be made electronically via an excel spreadsheet. They do not require returns for steam tests though.
In response to the paper trail question the originating club or society should be contacted to confirm if the certificate is genuine. Even before I saw the forged certificate I was able to say it was not genuine because the number itself did not tally with any issued from our Pad. It would only have been possible to find out which club issued the number I was given by contacting the boiler registrars of the relevant association/federation but in this case that wouldn't have helped in the least. I knew from the other information supplied that the loco in question had not been the subject of testing by the Andover Society since march 2013 and that the hydraulic certificate for it had expired in April 2014.
|
|
jackrae
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,333
|
Post by jackrae on Oct 7, 2016 21:35:41 GMT
It would only have been possible to find out which club issued the number I was given by contacting the boiler registrars of the relevant association/federation The NAME certificate requires the name of the club or society that issued the certificate to be entered |
|
jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
|
Post by jma1009 on Oct 7, 2016 22:02:10 GMT
Hi George,
Thank you very much for raising this issue on this and the ME forum.
Forged documents to increase (most would argue considerably) the sale price seems to me to be a criminal offence. I hope the unfortunate buyer has reported this matter to his local police.
Cheers,
Julian
|
|
|
|
Post by springcrocus on Oct 8, 2016 6:43:33 GMT
I know nothing about the numbering system in use for certificates but it may be worth considering that if the certificate number on the forgery is actually a valid number but from the wrong club or society, then it may indicate that the forger has some knowledge of the club who's number series is being used. Ex-member, maybe?
Steve
|
|
|
|
Post by steamcoal on Oct 8, 2016 8:02:03 GMT
How would someone have got hold of the pad of blank certificates?
This then implicates a boiler committee or members there of in the conspiracy for allowing access to blank forms or an unothorised test.
I may stand corrected but just a thought.
|
|
|
|
Post by springcrocus on Oct 8, 2016 8:14:58 GMT
How would someone have got hold of the pad of blank certificates? This then implicates a boiler committee or members there of in the conspiracy for allowing access to blank forms or an unothorised test. I may stand corrected but just a thought. John's (baggo) post indicates that the forgery is not from a genuine blank certificate. I was referring to the numbering sequence which may indicate prior local knowledge. Steve |
|
nonort
Part of the e-furniture
If all the worlds a Stage someone's nicked the Horses
Posts: 277 
|
Post by nonort on Oct 8, 2016 9:02:54 GMT
I suspect that if you have a reasonable knowledge of the internet you can get hold of an image of the certificate required then manipulate the image to get what looks like a genuine certificate. I personally would take the point of view that the certificate is a bit like an MOT on a car only accurate on the day it was written in any case. I have bought an engine via the internet but would not dream of running an engine before satisfieying myself of its safety. An age old saying 'buyer beware' holds good here, I would not normally buy an engine without first seeing it and any paperwork in the flesh. I am a boiler inspector for my club and the pads used have security built into them that are very difficult to fake. I personally don't feel that we need a centeral data base, perhaps better comunication of what a genuine certificate looks like. Trouble with the last statement is that if you put the information online it is easily copyable and therfore defeats the object of the exercise. Perhaps it is time in this dishonest world we live in to look at a whole new system of boiler certificate verifcation? I don't think when you present your certificates to run that the bar-litre, capacity of the boiler method of construction are required to be ascertained just that the boiler has a set of certification that upholds the requirments of the insurers.
|
|
pault
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,496
|
Post by pault on Oct 8, 2016 9:33:02 GMT
I have to agree with Nonort's post. The boiler paperwork can provide a useful history of the boiler (I actually preferred the old cards for that reason) and a guide as to its probable condition. The certificates only relate to the boilers condition during the test and give no indication what has happened to the boiler since the test. It is possible the boiler was run dry an hour after the test. For that reason I always recommend performing at least a WP hydraulic test and steaming of a loco before parting with any cash.
Forged certs may not actually mean there is something wrong with the boiler, but speak volumes about the person selling. Equally a genuine cert does not necessarily prove a boiler is sound.
Often locos are “brought as seen” sometimes with a no returns policy. If you get a bargain or your fingers burnt is down to how careful you are.
|
|
Tony K
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,573
|
Post by Tony K on Oct 8, 2016 12:48:23 GMT
The certificates are easy enough to forge and presumably the forger will get it right next time and it's no use looking for a hand-written serial number in future.
The only solution is to refer back to the originating club to check when buying, or have it retested.
The WSE is non-transferable anyway, but you might make a decision based on the fact the boiler has one.
Forget about the law and prosecuting people - it won't happen.
|
|
|
|
Post by steamlaser on Oct 8, 2016 20:50:37 GMT
The certificates are easy enough to forge and presumably the forger will get it right next time and it's no use looking for a hand-written serial number in future. The only solution is to refer back to the originating club to check when buying, or have it retested. The WSE is non-transferable anyway, but you might make a decision based on the fact the boiler has one. Forget about the law and prosecuting people - it won't happen. My club keeps a separate written record of all boilers tested and who the owners are. We also have the formal test records on file. The trouble is that you see a wonderful bargain on a well known bidding site and may then consider risking your hard earned cash. If in the mean time you then try to contact the club that issued the test certificate , it may take a couple of days for the Club Secretary ( or the original tester) to view the formal club records which could be locked up in a club house. In that time you may miss out on a bargain (or otherwise!). Also as a boiler inspector, I would not want to be phoned up at home at some ungodly hour by an unknown person "demanding" an instant confirmation of the veracity of a boiler certificate! I may be giving out confidential data allowing somebody to spin a web of deceit. My club owns its own laptop and possibly a first step would be to have an electronic record all new tests carried out. If the Club Secretary is contacted, he/she could at least call up an instant record of the basic ownership details. In this way it could be confirmed if the certificate appears to be valid or other wise. If there was any doubt, a copy of the original certificate would need to be sent to the issuing club. As an aside, a boiler was brought to our club by a vendor and the experienced boiler testers (who are always helpful) stated that it was so poorly made that they would not even consider testing it. It was later sold on a well known bidding site for a profit! The moral is belong to a club and insist on a boiler test before parting with your cash, unless you genuinely know where a boiler came from. |
|
|
|
Post by huttcourt on Dec 24, 2016 18:38:03 GMT
I WAS THE PERSON WHO REPORTED THE FAKE CERTIFICATE TO GEORGE RAY AND HELPED EXPOSE THE FAKERS...I AM Peter Wilkins of HUTTON COURT MANOR...Now some prat on facebook has said its me who fakes certs..god help us..  that person is having action taken..my Brief has it in hand..LIBel IS LILEL sfter all...Merry Xmas P.S. There is one club that shows a full detailed page of the new certificates BLANK-Asking for trouble...!!! |
|
|
|
Post by Rex Hanman on Dec 24, 2016 21:13:25 GMT
Farcebook has a lot to answer for! I wish you every success. Meanwhile, don't let it spoil your Christmas.
Kindest regards,
Rex
|
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Dec 24, 2016 21:18:56 GMT
I'd just ask for an apology and only act if they refuse to remove it. You'll just cause yourself a lot of unnecessary expense and annoyance over and above what's already happened.
|
|
that person is having action taken..my Brief has it in hand..LIBel IS LILEL sfter all...Merry Xmas P.S. There is one club that shows a full detailed page of the new certificates BLANK-Asking for trouble...!!!
