jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Jan 16, 2017 15:23:22 GMT
Hi Simon,
You are the only director and sole shareholder of The Steam Workshop Ltd, and as such any net profits of the company go to you.
I note also that you have applied for your company to be struck off the register which would automatically take effect on 29th January, and that the company accounts have not been filed with Companies House and are overdue.
I really dont see why dating a boiler certificate after the date of sale makes any difference whatsoever. The same parties are involved, and precisely the same issues arise.
Cheers, Julian
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Post by simonhudson on Jan 16, 2017 16:18:09 GMT
Hi Julian, There are two companies that you have researched there, and your negativity is not helpful to the debate or indeed our hobby. Again, your words imply some sort of dodgy dealing, of which there is none,.... and it's just not nice. Stop it! In case you're all interested,..... The Steam Workshop Ltd was the original company that I set up in order to begin restoration of steam models with my friend John,.... it broadened more or less immediately into a dealership for second hand models, but crucially before it became profitable,.... indeed before a single penny was turned in profit,(growth, staff and premises are expensive!),.... we bought and absorbed D Hewson models from Doug and Mike necessitating our immediate VAT registration. Upon the advice of our accountant it became sensible to re-invent the company to better suit the new set up, and the VAT registration but as we hadn't in fact traded long enough at the time for TSW Lts accounts to become due, and the company had yet to turn a profit, it was decided that the original company should be left with no accounts submitted to be struck off by companies house (less accountancy fees and faff), and the new company TSW Services Ltd, the VAT registered, ready to perform Hewson inclusive workshop and dealership should pick up from where the initial start up company left off. On a personal note Julian, you may remember that last year you very sadly had to take the unhappy decision to part with your Armstrong. John (our chief engineer) tipped me off that you were saddened to be in this position and that it would be nice if we could help. You may remember that I wrote to you on behalf of The Steam Workshop at the time to offer to buy the model from you and sit on it here until you were in a position to purchase it back from us. Sadly we were too late and you'd already parted with it. However to me, that is the kind of company and hobby centered attitude that I'm proud to be associated with, and would have particularly expected you of all people to be supporting within this hobby. (sorry to remind you of that, but you did rather attack us a bit there!) Lastly, and again, we are all here, on the same side, wishing to enjoy our hobby with our friends and all the lovely people in the world that share our common interest. We can approach our interactions on line, and in the club environment with suspicion and negativity,.... or we can take an open, friendly and benevolent attitude toward the whole thing and just have a nicer place to be!
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Post by john106 on Jan 16, 2017 17:52:44 GMT
Hi Simon
long time reader of this forum, first post. I have been involved in miniature railways for many years, have read the NAMES boiler testing procedures etc, but am not a boiler tester and do not have a steam locomotive yet.
Just so I understand it
- you own a company that buys and sells for profit (commercial) steam locomotives
- you have set up more than 1 club ( club - hobby - non commercial) just for the purpose of testing boilers
- you are (one of) the club boiler testers
- you can join this club for £10, have your boiler tested and certified, and have no more involvement
- your club uses the NAMES boiler testing procedure (club - hobby - non commercial), public liability insurance, and issues certificates under this policy
Two questions.
Can anyone join this club of yours for £10, or is it by invite only?
Do you really believe this is in the spirit of the NAMES scheme?
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Post by simonhudson on Jan 16, 2017 18:44:43 GMT
Hi John, I'm not a particularly regular poster myself, but I kinda got dragged into this one, so here I am! A very clear set of bullet points so an equally clear set of answers. Yes and yes. Yes, anyone can join. Why not? What is the benefit of invite only? Yes I absolutely do believe that this is completely in the spirit of the NAMES scheme. The spirit of the NAMES scheme is to ensure a consistent standard of safety that we all subscribe to through a recognisable boiler testing regime. As a hobby we came together and all agreed what denotes a safe boiler and a safe testing process. We wrote it down in a little green book so that everyone can look it up and ensure that they are working within those guidelines. The spirit of the NAMES scheme is one of collaborative safety, a spirit to which I wholeheartedly subscribe. I feel that I have demonstrated in this thread that in my capacity as a club boiler inspector I am working to a higher standard of safety than many other club inspectors within our hobby. It would, in my view be entirely contrary to the NAMES spirit for me to set up independently and start doing my own testing thing. That would almost certainly undermine the current collaborative standard and potentially do significant harm to our current external credibility. So again, unless you are suggesting that we ought to limit the number of boilers that we test within our hobby, a club inspector willing to test a large volume of boilers, for anyone who asks, without any requirement that they invest in a specific club strikes me as a very good thing for the safety of our hobby as a whole.
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Post by steamcoal on Jan 16, 2017 21:18:48 GMT
Whats the difference between the traction engine and road steam boys paying there money for a club boiler test and never beening seen at the club from one certificate to the next.
They might pay there subs but do they do much "club" work in recompence for there certificate? 🤔
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Post by steamcoal on Jan 16, 2017 21:24:57 GMT
Down here we are contemplating creating an affiliated organisation to bring us a more rigid and transparent boiler testing regime. Firstly there are few of us to comply with the AMBSC requirements to qualify as a B.I's but also we see no great need for having a boiler committee to test just four locos every four years.
We can combine resources and get on an enjoy the hobby.
This is an interesting discussion and I myself are party to these issues, not through TSW or SRS, the recognised sellers but my confidence has been dented by one experience with a "fringe trader".
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Jan 16, 2017 22:50:49 GMT
Hi Simon,
When I said yesterday I wasnt interested in the personalities involved just the legal principles and didnt know who you are etc I made a grave error in forgetting both your PM to me last June, and your splendid gilding of an LBSCR 5"g terrier lettering which Adam posted which I commented upon. I had also commented previously on your acquiring the rights to Doug Hewson's designs. How I could have forgotten all this I dont know. Anno Domini in my case, and you deserve an apology for same.
I dont think your PM to me re the sale of my 5"g Armstrong Standard Goods was quite as explicit, but nevertheless the sentiment expressed at the time was highly thought of.
You are a very clever model engineer who is highly regarded.
With the start of your new company (which I cant find listed yet) I wish you every success.
I think you might like to revisit the boiler test routine you have used, and use a better system that is beyond reproach and any criticism.
I dont have any qualms with a club being set up to take advantage of the Federation(s) set up for boiler tests. But someone not connected with your business in any way must be the boiler inspector and carry out the tests. As we often used to have drummed into us a club boiler inspector is 'independant'!
I hope the above is helpful and constructive.
Cheers, Julian
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Post by mutley on Jan 16, 2017 22:55:22 GMT
Whats the difference between the traction engine and road steam boys paying there money for a club boiler test and never beening seen at the club from one certificate to the next. They might pay there subs but do they do much "club" work in recompence for there certificate? 🤔 My traction engine is on a commercial boiler ticket, it has to be due to its size. I still pay my club subs, I take my engine down and steam it for the benefit of the club 3 or 4 times a year, where do I stand then? Am I entitled to be a club member?
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Jan 16, 2017 23:15:19 GMT
Mutley, of course you are entitled to be even if you didnt attend the club at all.
This hobby needs to encourage younger people than me. Long probationary periods of membership where you have to prove your worth to the club (yes, such requirements do exist in some clubs) are not my way things should be done, and ought to to be frowned upon.
Younger guys like Adam (cro), Simon Hudson, paul1979, and yourself are the sort of people this wonderful hobby needs to keep it going as the rest of us 'old uns' get old and cant lift locos anymore.
Cheers, Julian
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smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,269
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Post by smallbrother on Jan 17, 2017 9:22:17 GMT
If Simon's tests are in accordance with The Code, witnessed and filmed, I can't see a problem.
If that isn't enough, go and test the loco with him.
How is any other procedure more reliable for the customer? What does anyone gain?
It is terrific to see a firm that approaches this hobby in this positive way. If every step involved satisfying some grumpy old bugger looking for problems that don't actually exist then no-one would take it up.
Pete.
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Post by steamcoal on Jan 17, 2017 10:42:35 GMT
Pete and Paul.
I have just had this discussion about commercial sellers and thier testing with my friend from the UK. He is adamant that becuase of the nature of the MES and the model engineering hobby in the UK that it is highly unlikely that it will be accepted that a person or purveyor of locos will ever be freely allowed to test and sell boilers, or without huge prejudice. It just goes against the principles of model engineering as we know it then and this still seems to prevail today.
I agree fully that it is the test and not the tester that is what matters to the owner or driver but this debate is about the tester and their position in relevance to the hobby as it stands at the present time.
I can say from personal experience that if there were not commercial purveyours of locos it is highly unlikely that I would own the examples I now have and be involved in the hobby. Of course in past times, and I am talking about the UK here, your were a no-body unless you built your own engine, even kit built locos were frowned upon as being for the unskilled and a way outsiders could enter the sacred turf of a MES. How could one have ever have gained entry to the inner sanctum of a MES, you had to build one yourself.
Personally I think that this current situation is of great detriment to the ME hobby because it is clear that one of the only ways of gaining entry to the hobby for some is to purchase an engine and begin the argious trail to gain experience and knowledge. If the engines are all held within the inner circle then how will the hobby spread and create interest from outside. Are there really still those that are hugly protective of there hobby in this modern age of technology, obviously yes!
Going by what I have seen I and read its obvious that the current club testing regime is open to question itself, clubs offer no guarantee or comeback but (most) commercial sellers stake their livelihood on being a reputable operation. If they do not then in this small community the word gets around and they will not last long. The technicalities of who is the actual boiler tester may be a question open for debate but primarily we are asking if those "outside" the fence should be allowed to offer a service buy which historically only a select few have had the ability to partake in.
Already there is much debate about the dwindling membership of clubs and it could be clearly stated that this closed and protective nature is partially responsible.I agree that we do not wish to be the fixers of underlings mistakes but I had to start somewhere too. I can see both sides of the debate yes,but for the future of the hobby to prosper information and knowledge needs to be made more free to those that will eventually be the boiler testers and boiler makers of this hobby. Its hard enough now but do you really want to make it even worse by creating a closed shop, that bad news all around.
Remember the test prescription is firmly set be it Federation or AMBSC or the like so thats half the battle.
Its a hobby after all.
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smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,269
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Post by smallbrother on Jan 17, 2017 12:03:49 GMT
Fortunately Hayden the boiler inspectors I have encountered have been reasonable people. A few noises are sometimes made which sound like the grumpy old man syndrome, but then it is down to business in a practical and sensible way.
Like you, I need the dealers in order to take part.
Pete.
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Post by john106 on Jan 17, 2017 14:23:39 GMT
Hi John, I'm not a particularly regular poster myself, but I kinda got dragged into this one, so here I am! A very clear set of bullet points so an equally clear set of answers. Yes and yes. Yes, anyone can join. Why not? What is the benefit of invite only? Yes I absolutely do believe that this is completely in the spirit of the NAMES scheme. The spirit of the NAMES scheme is to ensure a consistent standard of safety that we all subscribe to through a recognisable boiler testing regime. As a hobby we came together and all agreed what denotes a safe boiler and a safe testing process. We wrote it down in a little green book so that everyone can look it up and ensure that they are working within those guidelines. The spirit of the NAMES scheme is one of collaborative safety, a spirit to which I wholeheartedly subscribe. I feel that I have demonstrated in this thread that in my capacity as a club boiler inspector I am working to a higher standard of safety than many other club inspectors within our hobby. It would, in my view be entirely contrary to the NAMES spirit for me to set up independently and start doing my own testing thing. That would almost certainly undermine the current collaborative standard and potentially do significant harm to our current external credibility. So again, unless you are suggesting that we ought to limit the number of boilers that we test within our hobby, a club inspector willing to test a large volume of boilers, for anyone who asks, without any requirement that they invest in a specific club strikes me as a very good thing for the safety of our hobby as a whole.
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Post by john106 on Jan 17, 2017 14:31:57 GMT
Hi Simon
thank you for your honest reply. I am not in any way suggesting you are not competent to test boilers, and I fully agree we need high standards of testing.
My issue is I disagree with the use of the NAMES scheme, and in particular your setting up of more than 1 club for the sole purpose of testing boilers. This is I feel is what is against the spirit of the scheme.
You sell commercially, you are a competent boiler tester, so why not offer this service commercially from your own company, under your own professional indemnity and liability insurance? You suggest there is a large volume of people who want to have boilers tested, but don't want to commit to a club. What a business opportunity!!
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Post by simonhudson on Jan 17, 2017 15:52:03 GMT
Hi John, It's a completely reasonable question, and there are specific reasons that we've gone this route. Firstly let me say that we actually set the first club up for the specific purposes of testing boilers, with no track,.... not to test the boilers for TSW at all, but to test our own boilers within the GL5 (ground Level 5" society). The GL5 is a 'roving' club where the members are from all over the country, indeed the world, and we all meet throughout the year at different club and private tracks. So many of the members got fed up of the miserable approach taken by their local MES club inspectors over their wish to get their boilers tested, but their lack of subsequent investment in the club, that the only solution seemed to be to set up our own society, purely for the purposes of testing boilers. That makes complete sense to me, and that's in essence why our clubs were set up. The testing of boilers that have recently been sold through The Steam Workshop is a sort of spin off that addresses this next issue. The reason that The Steam Workshop doesn't simply issue our own professional boiler test certificates under our own professional indemnity and liability insurance, is because we tried that first and it doesn't work! Those certificates were deemed more or less useless to just about every club and MES in the country that our customers presented them to. They were, to a last man greeted with the 'what's this?' response, followed by the 'no I'm sorry, that's not a NAMES certificate, we are going to have to test this at the club again to bring it under our umberella'. Furthermore, regularly models come into the workshops here after someone has passed away, the paperwork having all been lost. An unknown boiler of an unknown age (with or without a professional certificate) presenting to the most common type of club inspector results in the 'no, I'm sorry, it's a boiler off job, I need to see under that cladding!'. The net result was that we might as well not have bothered. The certificates we were doing were no more use than a business guarantee of what we were selling. They did not enable a purchaser to take the model to their club and play. Obviously this is a generally unsatisfactory situation, but it was more than that. We sell actually to a lot of new people to our hobby. I personally, regularly guide new people through the basics of locomotive operation and the fact is that if they present their new toy to a club with a professional (non NAMES) certificate, they suddenly find themselves faced with a lot of scary hoop jumping, locomotive disassembly, paperwork, and sadly, far too often a self important old man who's agenda is impressing them with his knowledge and power rather than easing their nerves and holding their hands into a new and now increasingly not worth it hobby! The solution, to work in my capacity as a NAMES inspector, join them up to our MES in order to certificate their boilers post sale and bring them straight into the hobby smoothly, safely and without fuss. I of course accept that this walks close to the line in the grey area of my personal 'financial interest', but as touched upon earlier, it doesn't infringe the rules. I believe that I have addressed any potential biasing accusation/risk by videoing each test. The further question of whether it infringes the 'spirit of the scheme' is also important for me. Because I believe the scheme's primary objective is collective safety, and we are safe, I would maintain that we are entirely subscribed to the spirit and purpose of the scheme. Problems all solved. Briefly,.... Julian,.... thank you sincerely for your super kind words back there. I can't personally take credit for The Steam Workshop's guilding of the terrier name video that you mentioned. I was filming, John Holroyd, our chief engineer and my friend with whom I started this business was guilding. He's an even better model engineer too, but shhhh, don't tell him I said so or he'll be a nightmare to work with! Simon
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mbrown
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,724
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Post by mbrown on Jan 17, 2017 19:06:31 GMT
I have been following these dates changes with interest. I don't think Simon said so explicitly, but if the boiler certificates his club issues are recognised by NAMES (and if they are not, what possible benefit is there in having one...? ) then the recognition of his club by NAMES is all the authentication anyone could need. If the certificates have NAMES's name on, then that, rather than the nature of the club, is what matters.
Or have I missed something?
Malcolm
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Post by simonhudson on Jan 17, 2017 19:55:49 GMT
Hi Malcom, Yes, the clubs that I am a boiler inspector for are all NAMES recognised, and all the certificates that I have written are all completely legitimate. Hypothetically speaking, If I were found to be disregarding the guidelines in the green gospel book, then NAMES could and no doubt would tell me to stop doing so. I don't believe that to be the case though, and the Northern Association is aware of how I've tackled this issue. Simon
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mbrown
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,724
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Post by mbrown on Jan 17, 2017 20:27:57 GMT
That's what I thought. NAMES is the body that has the interest in "policing" the testing procedures that result in the issue of one of their certificates. That is the basic guarantee.
BTW, I fell prey to the curse of predictive text and the weird expression "dates changes" in my post above was meant to be "debates"..... sorry for any bafflement.
Malcolm
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Jan 17, 2017 20:45:21 GMT
Simon has been very magnanimous, and also very frank and open in all his replies. I suggest that so far as this post is concerned we comment on his business no more, and wish it every success.
There are still a few issues from earlier pre Steam Workshop discussion.
It seems to me that the considerable increase in miniature loco resales part due to ebay and the influx of Modelworks/Winson debacle has not been addressed by the Federations in the UK nor the Farnsworth type set up that previous threads commented upon that one particular dealer in Brum used.
The Federations really need to get a grip on this.
As David Goyder ('Midland' on here) is quite close to the Southern Fed heirachy he might like to comment.
Cheers, Julian
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Jan 17, 2017 21:56:01 GMT
Fortunately Hayden the boiler inspectors I have encountered have been reasonable people. A few noises are sometimes made which sound like the grumpy old man syndrome, but then it is down to business in a practical and sensible way. Like you, I need the dealers in order to take part. Pete. Hi Pete, I think you are forgetting the problems we both encountered a few years ago in the Merthyr Club. I well remember talk in the club premises by a certain individual "We are not going to test Peter's loco boilers. He has done nothing to help this club". In my case you will recall I spent a considerable amount of time making up track panels and laying same, mixing concrete in all weathers and struggling with heavy steel beams every weekend and much time besides to create a decent groundlevel and raised track. Yet some time afterwards I spent months trying to arrange a test of Stepney's new boiler, but the club secretary would not provide the club boiler inspector with the paperwork to allow the official test to be carried out. This was quite outrageous. This sort of thing that you and I had to deal with on a yearly basis is thankfully very rare, and I am very pleased that the Newport Club that you are now a member of has the sort of procedure expected of. Cheers, Julian
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