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Post by steamcoal on Mar 26, 2018 9:35:25 GMT
My locomotive builder friends and I need to build a stand by which we can rotate a locomotive to work on the innards underneath as you do occasionally.
We have a few requirements in that we do not want to build one each but we want to be able to loan it amongst ourselves in time of need and we also have a variety of locos, namely 5" ModelWorks Britannia, 5" Ashford, Achillies, 5" N.G Hunslet, P.V Baker and down to little Juliet plus others in between we can't remember at present or have hidden from the wife!
Are there any good ideas out there that we should include in our design??
One thing I though is necessary is the ability to alter the spacing between the support to accommodate the different length of loco, naturally.Something that can be moved but then braced up to support the whole thing.
Does it need braked wheels?
Any photos and wisdon would be greatly appreciated.
Hayden
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rrmrd66
Part of the e-furniture
Posts: 339 
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Post by rrmrd66 on Mar 26, 2018 9:46:50 GMT
My locomotive builder friends and I need to build a stand by which we can rotate a locomotive to work on the innards underneath as you do occasionally. We have a few requirements in that we do not want to build one each but we want to be able to loan it amongst ourselves in time of need and we also have a variety of locos, namely 5" ModelWorks Britannia, 5" Ashford, Achillies, 5" N.G Hunslet, P.V Baker and down to little Juliet plus others in between we can't remember at present or have hidden from the wife! Are there any good ideas out there that we should include in our design?? One thing I though is necessary is the ability to alter the spacing between the support to accommodate the different length of loco, naturally.Something that can be moved but then braced up to support the whole thing. Does it need braked wheels? Any photos and wisdon would be greatly appreciated. Hayden Hi Hayden Have a look at this about a third down the page: modeleng.proboards.com/thread/11844/hunslet-5-inch-gauge-build?page=5Cheers Malcolm |
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Post by steamcoal on Mar 26, 2018 9:59:15 GMT
Malcolm.
Thanks for that link. Well it will fit the Hunslet which is good.
Thank you.
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Post by balljoint on Mar 26, 2018 18:40:54 GMT
Hi Hayden Here is a picture of my Super Simplex in a frame which I made , to a design that appeared in the SMEE Journal  The length can be roughly adjusted by where you bolt the cross menmbers and then fine tuned by sliding the mounting plate on the round shafts, which are then secured at the required angle by the wing nuts. The uprights are made from studding, and can be adjusted to suit the height of the loco. Mine are quite low at the moment, but once the boiler is mounted, I will have to change the length of the uprights. Regards Colin |
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Post by ilvaporista on Mar 26, 2018 18:55:05 GMT
I made mine from slotted L shaped dexion with an overlap in the middle that allows me to adust for length. Two swivel castors with brakes and two free. I originally had two fixed but it was difficult to move in a restricted space. The gearbox is from a roller shutter and the other end is supported on a plumber block. All bolt together and took about 1 hour to make.
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 26, 2018 21:09:46 GMT
Hi Hayden,
Just a word of caution re maintenance on a completed loco that has been run in steam.
When you upturn the loco all sorts of muck and crap risks getting into places it out not to go inside the boiler. You may as a result find clack valves will not seat and the injectors refuse to work. The blower gets blocked etc.
I prefer to suspend a loco upright, and do any work from underneath.
Cheers,
Julian
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Post by Roger on Mar 26, 2018 22:09:36 GMT
Hi Hayden, Here's a link to my album showing what I did for a turning frame. The key features I wanted are as follows... 1) To be able to alter the height of the attachment point so the centre of gravity could be adjusted to be around the pivot point, and also be able to drop the locomotive down onto the bench or display track. 2) The mechanism was to be self locking so it stayed wherever I adjusted it to. 3) An adjustable attachment point so it could be lifted by my crane. Obviously you require other features, but I don't think they would be hard to implement. The spacing between the ends could be adjusted using a single rod on the base and a bush at one end with a locking screw. I only use one bar to connect the ends even though it was designed to have two. One was found to be quite sufficient. The worm and gear cost about £15 from eBay, it's a standard repair part for a garage door opener and there are multiple suppliers of the same part. |
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Post by doubletop on Mar 26, 2018 23:26:36 GMT
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Post by Jim on Mar 27, 2018 5:57:43 GMT
Hi Hayden, Just a word of caution re maintenance on a completed loco that has been run in steam. When you upturn the loco all sorts of muck and crap risks getting into places it out not to go inside the boiler. You may as a result find clack valves will not seat and the injectors refuse to work. The blower gets blocked etc. I prefer to suspend a loco upright, and do any work from underneath. Cheers, Julian I'd agree with Julian on this. I personally would not dare try turning the Britannia over given its weight and size. I have designed an extension to the track the Britannia normally rests on so it can be run forward for me to do as Julian does, work on it from underneath. Having said that the only thing that may need attention would be the whistle tucked between the frames under the smokebox and it can be reached and removed easily by dropping the front bogie. Jim. |
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 27, 2018 5:58:02 GMT
The simplest approach is this:  Girador by joan lluch, on Flickr  Amb el bisell muntat by joan lluch, on Flickr This was suggested to me 3 years ago by someone in the forums (photos are from July 2015) but it's still in place today. The array of holes allow the loco to be attached at several heights to find the one that best matches the rotational centre of gravity. The loco can be rotated into 6 positions including completely upside-down. According to the 3D CAD drawings this loco will weight around 218 Kg when it's finished, so I suppose that at some point I will have to replace this by a more sensible approach, or use the crane every time I want to turn it over, or just avoid turning it over as per Jim's suggestion above. So far -without the boiler being assembled- I can still turn it over by hand. For smaller locos I suppose this approach could still work relatively well until the end of the build. Joan |
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Post by Roger on Mar 27, 2018 7:53:57 GMT
Hi Hayden, Just a word of caution re maintenance on a completed loco that has been run in steam. When you upturn the loco all sorts of muck and crap risks getting into places it out not to go inside the boiler. You may as a result find clack valves will not seat and the injectors refuse to work. The blower gets blocked etc. I prefer to suspend a loco upright, and do any work from underneath. Cheers, Julian I'd agree with Julian on this. I personally would not dare try turning the Britannia over given its weight and size. I have designed an extension to the track the Britannia normally rests on so it can be run forward for me to do as Julian does, work on it from underneath. Having said that the only thing that may need attention would be the whistle tucked between the frames under the smokebox and it can be reached and removed easily by dropping the front bogie. Jim. I'd agree that it might not be advisable to turn a locomotive a full 180 degrees for the reasons mentioned, but I would suggest that it's an awful lot easier to get to the underside if you can turn it over a bit, say something less than 90 degrees. Maybe bigger locomotives present more of a problem, but I don't think weight is an issue for a locomotive like mine. a turning frame can also lift the locomotive enough to get a lot of daylight under it, and that's a good start. |
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Post by 92220 on Mar 27, 2018 16:45:13 GMT
How about instead of working under the loco when horizontal, why not lift the front by, 30, or 45, degrees or more, to work underneath. My loco is still at the chassis stage, but I don't want to damage the paintwork that is already there, so when I want to work under it, I stand it on one end....either on the front buffers, or on the rear buffing shoe. Neither are painted so standing them on a piece of carpet stops them getting scratched by swarf on the floor, and I can work on anything underneath. Having it vertical is fine for a new build but probably not for a working loco. However, having it on a steep incline shouldn't cause any problems with a working loco, though others might see problems that I know nothing about. I've been mulling over a rotating frame to help with my build but just jacking up the front should be much easier than making a rotary frame. If it has the facility to jack up at both ends, that might also be an advantage.
To add to Julian's words of caution. turning a loco over sideways, with a heavy boiler in place, could well cause serious damage, depending on how the boiler is fixed down, front and back, bearing in mind it must have facility to expand, so somewhere, it cannot be fixed down securely.
Bob.
Bob.
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Post by steamcoal on Mar 28, 2018 10:57:09 GMT
Hello All.
Thanks for the great replies Jim, Joan, Roger , Julian and others, all valuable information and ideas in metal, wood etc from all over.
Grant that it is not wise to invert the loco and take on board those comments. I have an idea and the lifting stand is part of it.
For the complicated innards work I most likely will need to remove the boiler anyway for work on the drain cock linkages so better right side up until boiler comes off.
I'll read again the comments but even a partial turning will help for making some alterations.
Regards
Hayden
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miken
Part of the e-furniture
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Post by miken on Mar 29, 2018 16:24:42 GMT
I made this roll over device after finding a scrap motor/gearbox in a bin at work. I incorporated the right angle reduction gearbox part, removed the motor and replaced it with a crank handle. The ends of the frame can slide in and out to incorporate different length engines. The tender in this case. I have also made a larger frame a bit like a hospital gurney . The loco sits on top on castors and slides into the back of my car. The ends of the roll over thing also fit this frame.      |
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Post by cplmickey on Mar 30, 2018 8:32:22 GMT
so better right side up until boiler comes off. Haven't got any experience of turning stands but as some boilers are generally only fixed at the smokebox end (some only by a push fit too) I would be very vary of turning the complete loco upside down. |
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stevep
Elder Statesman
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Post by stevep on Mar 30, 2018 13:15:16 GMT
At the firebox end, it's normal to have angle on the boiler, and angle fixed to the frames which holds it down, so that it holds the boiler in position, but doesn't stop it moving lengthways due to thermal expansion.
So turning the whole engine over would not create any problems in that area. However, there's always the ash, soot and general crud in other areas.....
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Post by Roger on Mar 30, 2018 13:52:34 GMT
At the firebox end, it's normal to have angle on the boiler, and angle fixed to the frames which holds it down, so that it holds the boiler in position, but doesn't stop it moving lengthways due to thermal expansion. So turning the whole engine over would not create any problems in that area. However, there's always the ash, soot and general crud in other areas..... Exactly, and I can't see any objection to turning a locomotive over through say 45 degrees because of this. I don't think there's a huge benefit in completely inverting a locomotive in any case, anything more than 90 degrees seems like overkill to me. |
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Post by doubletop on Mar 31, 2018 4:25:09 GMT
If you are taking the trouble to make something you may as well make it as useful as it can possibly be. So designing to be able to rotate 360deg doesn't mean that the full rotation is has to be used. 360 deg is useful in the build/assembly phase but for day to day maintenance not recommended for the reasons stated. However, at some point a major re-work may be required and getting the loco beyond 90deg may outweigh the disadvantages.
I like to give my locos a regular wash down to get the rubbish out of the motion. We have two local tracks on the coast and sand is a problem, non galvanised steel tracks produce copious amounts of rust dust and when the council mower has been round there is grass everywhere. Getting the loco with its legs in the air and dealt to with degreaser and a good hose-down ensures it has a longer life. My Simplex and Dart were both rebuilds from local purchases and the amount of rubbish in them was unbelievable.
Pete
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Tony K
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,573
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Post by Tony K on Mar 31, 2018 9:04:22 GMT
....I'd agree with Julian on this. I personally would not dare try turning the Britannia over given its weight and size. I have designed an extension to the track the Britannia normally rests on so it can be run forward for me to do as Julian does, work on it from underneath. Having said that the only thing that may need attention would be the whistle tucked between the frames under the smokebox and it can be reached and removed easily by dropping the front bogie. Jim. Jim, I do put my Britannia on a rotator, but seldom need to. I think we have the same arrangement on our hydraulic table as below. Sometimes it is just easier to work on the loco on the bench, with it over at 30 or 45 deg. - no need to invert really. The only issue I have had to deal with "up and under" which would be difficult on the extended trolley is the axle pump. Julian and I are at one, I think, in the opinion that axle pumps are not needed and perhaps an invention of the devil. Better to have 2 working injectors, which I have already, and throw away the pump. Another story, and could happen soon, but my need to get under there would be even less. I have been watching your video Jim - well done and thank you for exposing yourself to us all the time. It is interesting how 2 blokes on opposite sides of the planet came up with a near-identical solution, but here is my version. Note the 4 stone balancing weight - it is not strictly necessary, but it makes me feel better.  Image here |
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Post by Jim on Mar 31, 2018 9:42:37 GMT
Hi Tony,
I must admit one of the great things about modern communications is that ideas and suggestions can flash across the world in a way that makes it almost as if we were in the same room.
Like you I decided to play safe and while I didn't have a 4 stone weight I did clamp the track to the table lest it tip up as the loco moved forward and onto the overhang.
I left the axle pump off my Britannia as I couldn't see the purpose of it given I had fitted two injectors. I could see hassles in servicing the pump too as it's tucked away up between the frames. For much the same reason I decided to abandon the Everlasting blow down valve given that no matter what I did it had a continual weep and to if it got worse it would require a complete strip down of the loco to get to it.
Keep up the great work your doing Tony.
Jim
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