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Post by bigal on Aug 13, 2018 18:02:30 GMT
It's great to see someone getting stuck in like this,it's a good way to learn.It's also very helpful to others like myself who are in a similar situation and on a learning curve.
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Post by gingerneer on Aug 13, 2018 22:30:53 GMT
Good stuff David
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Aug 17, 2018 8:38:34 GMT
For those who are curious, the chassis for this thing is on the Southern Fed stand (102) at the Bristol show. D
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Aug 17, 2018 21:53:14 GMT
Hi All An update, got into the workshop for a session to start undoing all the plugs and bringing the boiler back to something we can use. The new SS spring(s) courtesy of Lee arrived. Wow had to buy 5, needed one. In all about £20 so I have four spare for anyone who needs one or four! First job to ungunge (Sp??) the muck I put on it to get it through the shell test. IMG_0693 by David Goyder, on Flickr Now to put back the bits. No need to get into too much detail but that little screw takes the head off and then you put a long rod in, then the spring, then the flat round bit that is the actual disk that admits steam through the ports. (Yes I have not used the correct terms but then I am not an engineer!!) Anyway,that is all put together and one now slides the regulator tube (notice terminology) back into the boiler and one hits a hard face. Won't go in. Reason is we have not got the regulator long rod into the hole (flange?) in the backhead. Fiddle for an hour or so then put on thinking cap. Go get endoscope and have a look. This merely told me I was a dumb s***. Then it stuck me that if I could get a tube to pickup the end of the regulator rod, we could marry them and guide the rod through. I could have taken the gland off but since it held at 180 lbs why disturb. So endoscope feeding my ipad we married, IMG_0516 by David Goyder, on Flickr Very fuzzy pic but you get the idea. Push and pole and lo and behold, out it came. IMG_0695 by David Goyder, on Flickr So feeling a very clever bugger, tightened it all up! But look at the creepy crawlies in the top of this boiler. I think a good wash is in order. Now we know why boilers have wash out plugs, we learn something new everyday! IMG_0514 by David Goyder, on Flickr And that pipe is one of the thermic syphons in this boiler, it will be a formidable steam raiser, needs to be with four cylinders! The only other thing to mention is that this boiler has a plug to lubricate the regulator. This is the hole into which a sleeve screws and one puts oil down here. How much? When? What oil? This is on Jackson's drawings. IMG_0520 by David Goyder, on Flickr So there we are, the adventure continues and I am learning about this little darling!!! D
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jma1009
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Post by jma1009 on Aug 17, 2018 23:20:05 GMT
Hi David,
You asked re provenance on the Bristol Exhibition thread.
As David Myall will confirm, I had a very good look at the chassis on the Southern Fed stand. I must also link into the above your pics of the boiler.
It suggests to me something of far more recent build than the example I had in my dining room 1997-99, and Ted Linden's example quoted by both myself and Bob Youldon that dated back to the late 1940s. The axlepump design on yours is a single pump whereas I think mine had a double pump of enormous size, same as the drawings for the H P Jackson 3.5" GWR King. The exhaust pipe work is also better, as is the homemade lubrication system. Clearly someone who had made other locos previously.
I think the possible clincher are the bushes in the boiler for the firebox door arrangement fixings. This would appear to me to indicate either a forward looking club boiler inspector in the 1960s or 1970s, or even 1980s, or someone who had very good ideas based on previous experiences, or a boiler built in the last 25-30 years.
I am a bit bemused by the thermic syphons which indicates a combustion chamber. I honestly cannot remember whether the example I had in my dining room for 2 years had a combustion chamber except to say if it did have I ought to have remembered this detail, but memory can be very unreliable 20 years on in respect of something I was not very interested in at the time and with lots more important things going on.
I do recall a boiler for a 3.5"g Jackson/Clarkson LNER A3 Flying Scotsman, and this had no combustion chamber, and the 3.5"g Jackson GWR King I have has no combustion chamber. The only Jackson/Clarkson drawings I have are for the 3.5"g GWR King.
I thought the chassis looked very good and well made, though there were a few basic details I would have not been happy with such as one of the coupled axles is too short and might require further careful measuring of treads on the wheels etc. The Jackson/Clarkson wheels were of 'finescale' and of narrower tread than LBSC and ME standard designs. The original wheel castings were very good and far better than obtainable via the trade for other designs these days.
The example I had for 2 years had a riveted and soft soldered boiler - no silver solder at all. I was far too busy at the time to make a new boiler for it, and I had no interest in LMS locos anyway.
Cheers,
Julian
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Aug 18, 2018 9:51:41 GMT
Julian Thanks for all that. Very interesting. Every bit helps. Here is Jackson's 1935 axle pump drawing which I think is what is in the chassis, your view welcome. Water pump by David Goyder, on Flickr Yes I was impressed but the four little bushes for the firebox door. I have a photo of the Princess Elizabeth doors and will modify to make a bit more like the real thing. The boiler drawing is undated but it does show the combustion chamber and there are four syphons according to the drawing. The combustion chamber boilers did not appear until 1935 so that would start to date the drawing but in contradiction to that is the straight sided tender a la Fowler. The Stanier tenders appeared after 1935. Did you notice one of the driving wheels is loose. It will need to be repinned and loctited I imagine. I hate to adjust anything on th chassis so care required here. Anyway thanks for your insights, we will continue. Cheers David
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Aug 23, 2018 9:14:20 GMT
A little bit of a clue. The chassis for the PR was on the SF stand at Bristol and I am told a chap came by and he recognised it from the double chimney. Apparently it was in a house clearance sale in Derby around 1980 and it could then have gone to Christie's. The chassis comes back to me om Friday so perhaps some more news! D
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Post by terrier060 on Aug 24, 2018 21:50:37 GMT
Hi David A very interesting thread. I will have a look and see if my Princess has two or a single pump. It is so long ago that I worked on her that I have forgotten! Mine has a choice I seem to remember of the high or low-sided tenders I have drawings for both. The boiler, which is huge for a 3.5G loco (as big as my 7.25G Terriers), has a combustion chamber with vertical water tubes. The boiler is very well made and hard soldered, probably professionally by the look of it, but as was the custom for many pre-1960 locomotives the stays were screwed in, nutted on the inside and soft-soldered. While this is quite safe, I am not sure whether it would pass modern boiler regulations. A pity if not as it has been hydraulically tested and quite sound. I decided to set the valve gear and cranks to give eight beats as I thought it would make smoother draughting. It has a single chimney as per Jackson's Princess Royal drawings. As I have lots of photos of Princess Elizabeth when she was at the Bulmers Cider works I based the model on her rather than Princess Royal, although I have the castings for the latter.
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Aug 24, 2018 22:21:36 GMT
Hi 060 Interesting comments. This boiler is very well made, just looking at it tells you that it is tidy and done by someone who knew what he was doing. I am now in contact with the chap who thinks he saw it at a house clearance near Derby in 1980 and who he thinks must have had access to the Derby drawing office. Maybe even worked there. Your comment about the Stanier and Fowler tenders is important. The Blackgates drawings provide a drawing for the Fowler tender only, the 9T one. But I got hold of a very old and almost destroyed Jackson drawing (P11) of the 1936/7 Stanier tender. It was so old that I stuck it to plain paper and have given it to Blackgates as it is a missing link. Now if you have a Stanier tender, where did you get the drawing from and do you still have it? My Stanier tender drawing is dated by Jackson as very early 1937. This is better than the Midsomer Murders as we investigate the history of these locos in miniature form. I can tell you that I went through all of the Christie's sale catalogues at the Brighton Engineerium and all PRs had single chimneys. This Derby chap is the only person to recall a double chimney. So do you suppose that he had access to the Princess Elizabeth trial, put it on his loco and there it stayed, wow what a story!!! Might use it even it is not true, a good myth!!! David
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Aug 24, 2018 22:27:46 GMT
A call to Julian The Princess Royal does not have cylinder drain cocks. Do I have to make them (pretty dodgy knowing my skills??) or can I get them somewhere, I bow to your superior knowledge!! And by the way was able to tell Simplyloco a bit about the Walschearts (how ever you spell it) valve gear. How is Don too? D
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Post by terrier060 on Aug 25, 2018 6:32:21 GMT
Will get the drawings out when I can find them. I am pretty sure I have the full set. I see you belong to my old club. I offered to give a talk about my Terriers, but so far no interest. Am still in contact with Merlin Biddlecombe and Barry Eden. Ed
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Aug 26, 2018 9:38:48 GMT
Will get the drawings out when I can find them. I am pretty sure I have the full set. I see you belong to my old club. I offered to give a talk about my Terriers, but so far no interest. Am still in contact with Merlin Biddlecombe and Barry Eden. Ed Ed You are hired for a talk about Terriers. Although not chairman anymore (thank goodness), the current one appreciates help so I will get him in touch with you. Could you PM me your email. And if you came early enough we could poke around the PR. Your drawings will be invaluable. Blackgates did not have the Stanier tender drawing only the Fowler drawing. I acquired a (blueprint) copy of the Stanier tender drawing in very poor condition and have given it to them. D
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Post by terrier060 on Aug 27, 2018 18:12:32 GMT
Here is the set I have - I am sure I have the Fowler tender drawing somewhere which I assume is P8? I will look for it. It could be mixed up with other drawings that I have. Strangely my P11 is also a bit of a bodge. It looks as if it was a photograph of the original blueprint, in two pieces. It will be easy for me to digitise it as the detail is pretty clear. HP Jackson Princess Royal Drawings by ed cloutman, on Flickr Ed
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Post by masahiraoka on Aug 28, 2018 18:37:40 GMT
Hi David I also have high resolution digital scans of the Jackson Princess drawings which I’ve cleaned up so they’re as new Send me a pm with your email address and I’ll send them to you. I also have his Duchess drawings Regards Martyn
Sheet No. Harry Jackson Drawing Date LMS P/1 Main Frames Oct 1933 LMS P/2 Front Elevation, Aug 1934 LMS P/3 Pony Truck Nov 1933 LMS P/4 Cylinders Nov 1933 LMS P/5 Motion and Valve Gear Dec 1935 LMS P/6 Bogie Jan 1934 LMS P/7 Boiler and Fittings Feb 1936 LMS P/8 Straight Sided Tender General Arrangement Mar 1934 LMS P/9 Reversing Gear, Pumps, Brakes, etc. Nov 1935 LMS P/10 Engine General Arrangement, Nov 1933 LMS P/11 Tender Details Feb 1936
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Aug 28, 2018 22:31:49 GMT
First of all, many thanks for your encouragement and support on this project. When she runs I promise all of you a drive!!!! Air fares from Australia will have to be a global fund raiser or whatever they call it. I just wish I had been a little smarter today. Tony who gave it to me (a little £ was involved) came over to see how I was getting on and I ran the chassis under air. Swiss watch was his comment. But there is a slight click in the inside driving rods so I think I will make new bearings in there as all Midland engines were built the same way, more of less. But she is a jewel, very pleased, much better than a mistress!!!!! D
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Nov 11, 2018 15:31:45 GMT
Hi Not sure quite what news I have revealed here. Passed the shell test at 180 lbs and that is enough. With the 990 under going some witchcraft treatment thought I would get stuck into the back head cover. Pic later. Cheers David
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Nov 11, 2018 16:51:58 GMT
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Mar 25, 2019 20:16:51 GMT
Well here she is, back on the bench in prime position. Al I have to do now is clad the boiler - HA!!! IMG_1337 (2) by David Goyder, on Flickr I suppose this is a learning experience, as they say!! PS My first attempt at baching copper was a disaster, will have to read more on the forum!
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Mar 25, 2019 20:27:06 GMT
Hi David I also have high resolution digital scans of the Jackson Princess drawings which I’ve cleaned up so they’re as new Send me a pm with your email address and I’ll send them to you. I also have his Duchess drawings Regards Martyn Sheet No. Harry Jackson Drawing Date LMS P/1 Main Frames Oct 1933 LMS P/2 Front Elevation, Aug 1934 LMS P/3 Pony Truck Nov 1933 LMS P/4 Cylinders Nov 1933 LMS P/5 Motion and Valve Gear Dec 1935 LMS P/6 Bogie Jan 1934 LMS P/7 Boiler and Fittings Feb 1936 LMS P/8 Straight Sided Tender General Arrangement Mar 1934 LMS P/9 Reversing Gear, Pumps, Brakes, etc. Nov 1935 LMS P/10 Engine General Arrangement, Nov 1933 LMS P/11 Tender Details Feb 1936 Been going over this thread, yes please, have sent a PM David
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Mar 25, 2019 21:23:09 GMT
Hi All
Just to demonstrate how my feeble mind is going senile, I am looking for our esteemed member who was cutting or turning in a large workshop and I spied a bloody great red loco in the background, a Princess Royal!! Upom my smart ass remark about seeing it he offered that this might be possible, but I have forgotten quite who it was (although I do have a short list!!). So please do pm me, our dear esteemed member!!
Cheers David
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