Midland
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Post by Midland on Jun 29, 2018 13:20:18 GMT
Of two minds to reveal to all that I must be bonkers but here goes, another adventure has beckoned. Now I have always said that anything bigger than a 4-4-0 is a waste of wheels and too big to lug about and that I need another project about as much as a hole in my head but my wife said she liked the red one so this Princess Royal, yes a bloody great 4 cylinder pacific, has come to stay with us. The only saving grace is that it is 3 1/2" and I can just about lift her. How I came to acquire her is another story and not really for this forum but her history may be. First of all I do not know her history except that she was bought at an auction around 1980. She appears to have never been steamed or if so only once, there is no soot in the smoke box. She has no boiler certification so first job is to get the boiler off and do a shell test. Then a hydraulic and eventually a steam test. Second job is to clean up the motion inside. Then test on air. Then I think we need to ask a few questions. Why a double chimney when they did not have one. 6201 was tested with one and it was a failure. The Stanier tender was a later change as they were built with a modified Fowler one. Jackson's drawing from 1933 shows the straight sided tender but he also did a curved sided drawing in 1938 so I suppose one can choose one's era. Definitely needs a repaint, thanks goodness 'simplyloco' is handy for lessons! She lacks a whistle so I must learn how to male one that 'hoots' rather than 'peeps'. Cab roof needs a rebuild and the cab layout could be smartened up. And probably more, certainly a bit of detailing would improve the rather spartan appearance. But does have a water pump, 4 cylinders at 1 by 1 3/4 and the boiler appears to have some interesting features in firebox, need to find out what they are!! So there we go, off to new discoveries. IMG_0490 by David Goyder, on Flickr IMG_0497 by David Goyder, on Flickr IMG_0494 by David Goyder, on Flickr And a set of new Jackson drawings arrived today. Cheers David
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Post by springcrocus on Jun 29, 2018 21:55:07 GMT
I'm sure John will be able to help with the new paint job. You might get it back in BR green, however. Regards, Steve (When he's practised on yours, I hope he will paint mine, too)
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,870
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Post by Midland on Jun 30, 2018 18:23:48 GMT
Had her on show today at our 3 1/2" day and had a chat with our boiler test manager about the shell test. He suggested I put some steam in her, just a little, 40-50lbs to see what happens, find any obvious leaks etc. So we did that and found a leaky smoke box door but no obvious leaks in the boiler. But as she was on blocks we tried the chassis. She ran perfectly. And when slowed down she turned over much as would a Swiss watch. She has obviously been built very well by a very competent ME. Thrilled to bits. Now to tackle the boiler. D
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Post by simplyloco on Jun 30, 2018 18:48:55 GMT
SNIP Now to tackle the boiler. D And the painting...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 22:56:40 GMT
Had her on show today at our 3 1/2" day and had a chat with our boiler test manager about the shell test. He suggested I put some steam in her, just a little, 40-50lbs to see what happens, find any obvious leaks etc. So we did that and found a leaky smoke box door but no obvious leaks in the boiler. But as she was on blocks we tried the chassis. She ran perfectly. And when slowed down she turned over much as would a Swiss watch. She has obviously been built very well by a very competent ME. Thrilled to bits. Now to tackle the boiler. D Great news David...I like the Princess Royal...great looking loco, IIRC there's an LMS video on youtube that features the Princess Royal from start to finish of her build.... Pete
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jma1009
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Post by jma1009 on Jun 30, 2018 23:34:33 GMT
Hi David,
A Clarkson or was it Jackson 3.5" loco of this type and design built by E J (Ted) Linden of injector fame hauled or was driven by the Duke of Edinburgh at I think the 1951 ME Exhibition on the SMEE track.
I had an example in my dining room for 2 years 1997-99. Very few about to the Clarkson/Jackson drawings in 3.5"g. I've never seen one in steam on a track.
A nice acquisition, and I hope all goes well with the boiler in due course.
Cheers,
Julian
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Midland
Elder Statesman
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Post by Midland on Jul 2, 2018 8:59:49 GMT
Julian She certainly is a Jackson and with a Jackson drawn high sided Stanier tender although not strictly correct as the rear coal bulkhead is too far forward. The Blackgates drawings show the Fowler tender but I have got quite by accident a Jackson drawn high sided drawn in 1938 whereas the other drawings are from 1933-35 so this is becoming a bit of a history lesson. I have asked Christie's if I may see their library catalogues from around 1980 to see if I can track down any more information. The other clue as to age maybe the Bassett-Lowke pressure gauge.
On a different aspect, much of the piping can be improved. What is the minimum size I can use for injector water and steam and the oil fed to the cylinders? I will have to replace the boiler lagging as I am pretty sure it will be asbestos. D
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,870
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Post by Midland on Jul 10, 2018 19:23:13 GMT
The boiler came off yesterday and this was part of the discovery process. there was one intriguing part. There was a form of putty around the steam pipe but the double blast pipes were held in by a screwed section. I took lots of photos (one of the joys of the mobile phone is this use) and ended up wondering why these pipes had hex sections. So, a hex socket set came into action and a half inch socket, turned by hand undid these bits. I reckon they were loose and should have been tighter. The issue is what to fill the gaps with when I do them up again. Silicon I guess. Although of course the purpose of these bits and their curved rings is to seal the smoke box. Interesting also is the oiler with series of quite large holes. Fill them with oil and it drips out in the right place. These are three diving axle boxes and the inside eccentric and water pump. The boiler came off yesterday and this was part of the discovery process. there was one intriguing part. There was a form of putty around the steam pipe but the double blast pipes were held in by a screwed section. I took lots of photos (one of the joys of the mobile phone is this use) and ended up wondering why these pipes had hex sections. So, a hex socket set came into action and a half inch socket, turned by hand undid these bits. I reckon they were loose and should have been tighter. The issue is what to fill the gaps with when I do them up again. Silicon I guess. Although of course the purpose of these bits and their curved rings is to seal the smoke box. Interesting also is the oiler with series of quite large holes. Fill them with oil and it drips out in the right place. These are three diving axle boxes and the inside eccentric and water pump. IMG_0437 by David Goyder, on Flickr IMG_0445 by David Goyder, on Flickr IMG_0442 by David Goyder, on Flickr IMG_0443 by David Goyder, on Flickr Next job is to look at the boiler amd see if it will hold a pressure. Cheers David
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Jul 11, 2018 21:54:21 GMT
Episode 2 Had a look at the boiler and got some of the cladding off. First of all, there was merely a little sackcloth around the boiler itself and it was showing its age as having very little insulating value so that will be one job to learn about cladding material in 2018 rather than 19??. The cladding around the firebox looks as if it is soldered on but at least to itself so once that comes off, I think this will be a recladding job with lots of very thin brass or whatever the modern substance is. (Yes, I am a learner!) Next, I stripped all the fittings off the back head but as most of them are very chunky and not self-retaining I think there is a little work here to get them up to scratch in the current century. But first of all is the making of plugs for all the holes so we can do the primary boiler test (whatever it is called, had it on my mind a few minutes ago), shell test I think. Once that is done we can fix the test pressure and the working pressure, about 80 should be enough. And then to the super heater. It has a combustion chamber too, quite frightening in a little loco but more on that later! IMG_0451 by David Goyder, on Flickr IMG_0449 by David Goyder, on Flickr Cheers D
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,870
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Post by Midland on Jul 11, 2018 21:59:24 GMT
On reflection, I will need some work in making new boiler cladding a la 'simplyloco' style D
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Post by simplyloco on Jul 11, 2018 22:05:58 GMT
On reflection, I will need some work in making new boiler cladding a la 'simplyloco' style D We can call the project 'The Emperor's New Clothes'..
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,870
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Post by Midland on Jul 11, 2018 22:13:21 GMT
On reflection, I will need some work in making new boiler cladding a la 'simplyloco' style D We can call the project 'The Emperor's New Clothes'.. or Gin King, you spilled the beans, the entire MECH is lining up, hic! hic!
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,870
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Post by Midland on Jul 13, 2018 21:49:48 GMT
Hi All Progress today. the GIN man came over today to inspect the boiler and we got on with a bit more. I have by now got most of the fittings off and in an organised box! The main cladding was held on by boiler bands at about 3 inches thick full size so these are a replacement job. The firebox cladding was soft soldered on to the firebox and an awful mess too so I decided that I would made new cladding that fitted properly so we took the torch to it. WP_20180713_12_09_34_Pro by David Goyder, on Flickr Then we investigated the super heater but first of all was a small hole on top, the drawing says "for lubricating the regulator"and it seems to be the steam collecting point as well. Then a bit of careful dismantling got the super heater out and it looked in good shape. So the next job is to start making plugs for all the holes and get to the all important shell test. IMG_0462 by David Goyder, on Flickr Decisions made are, new smaller and to scale fittings in the cab, new cab, new cladding all around but this is after going up to Butterly to photograph the real thing in the guise of 6201, Princess Elizabeth and finding the details out for real. The boiler looks good though so planning to go for 180 lbs and run her at 90. More to follow as it occurs! D
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don9f
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Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
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Post by don9f on Jul 13, 2018 22:22:58 GMT
Hi David, please note that 6203 Princess Margaret Rose is at Butterley (West Shed) and 6201 Princess Elizabeth was moved to Carnforth earlier this year. As you may know, the two locos have a number of detail differences that might influence which one you choose to look at? I’m often around the West Shed if there’s anything I can take photos of etc. It’s the PRCLT “Patron’s Weekend” this weekend, so I think 6203 will be outside both days.
Cheers Don
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Post by steamer5 on Jul 13, 2018 23:00:40 GMT
Hi David, Looks like you have got yourself a fun project! Can I make a suggestion? Just cause the superheater looks "ok" my suggestion would be to clean it up, inspect closely & put it under a pressure test, I guess its copper & erosion of the firebox end thins down the copper......how do I know well with the loco just got to steam & opening the regulator to move off the steaming bays I had LOTS more steam up the chimney than expected! No steaming that day, that's after a 3 1/2 drive. ah well I made new stainless superheaters, getting them to fit was interesting!
Cheers Kerrin
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Jul 14, 2018 9:06:50 GMT
Thanks to both Don and Kerrin Bit of a blow to find 6201 has gone north, that is a long drive from Southampton but I do know that 6200 and 6201 were built together and are similar so my preference will be to go north. It may mean taking my co driver and two dogs for a couple of days or a very early start. I do not fancy driving 9 hours in one day!!!! Will have to think about that one although a short holiday for dearly beloved might help.
As for the super heater, yes, need to clean it up and do a pressure test. If I am going to do a shell test on the boiler It might be thought foolish to foreget the super heater even I take to only 150% or working pressure which I think will be 90 if the boiler will take it.
Yes a fun project, will keep posting! Cheers David
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Post by miketaylor on Jul 14, 2018 10:18:12 GMT
You should be able to do Soton-Carnforth in 5 hours, perhaps less on a good day. My mother used to live in Arnside and we did the trip fairly often; usually without a stop.
Of course, if you are thinking of there and back in one day then good luck with that. However, if you are going to head up to the lake district why on earth turn round and drive straight home??
Mike
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Post by dhamblin on Jul 14, 2018 19:32:22 GMT
Don't forget that Carnforth is now a closed private site, being the main operating and maintenance base for West Coast Railway Company. You'll need to get permission from them and the Princess Elizabeth Locomotive Society to get access to 6201. An interesting project David, always nice to see something a bit rarer. Best of luck with it Regards, Dan
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,870
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Post by Midland on Jul 15, 2018 20:07:34 GMT
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Post by 4fbuilder on Jul 15, 2018 20:38:32 GMT
Good evening David,
I would suggest if you havent't already got copies, the Wild Swam publisher's LMS Loco Profiles No. 4 The Princess Royal Pacifics by David Hunt, Bob Essery and Fred James and LMS Loco Profiles No. 4 The Princess Royal Pacifics Pictorial Supplement by John Jennison, David Hunt & Bob Essery. both books are a mine of information, photographs and importantly, drawings. If I'd hd a copy when building my 4Fs (three of them) I think I may well have started all over again!
At one time we had at the Sussex Miniature Locomotive society Eric Linden's loco. it was a little darling, wemt like a swiss watch.
Good luck with your locomotive although the boiler looks a bit evil.
Regards,
Bob
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