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Post by harryrobinson on Aug 10, 2021 12:20:19 GMT
Hi all,
I’m looking to start doing proper modifications on my locomotives, and sooner or later I’d like to build a locomotive, probably a chub or something LBSC. I work at my clubs workshop, which has a suitable lathe, but I don’t think it has all the tooling like taps, dies, drills, etc that I’d need. If anybody could give me a rundown of what I’d need to attempt a 5 or 3 1/2 inch loco build, that would be appreciated!
Note - for now I’m only focusing on lathe tools and hand tools, I don’t have access to a mill so I won’t think about the tooling for that just yet.
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Post by Jim on Aug 10, 2021 12:24:18 GMT
I can't really answer your question as it is pretty wide ranging. In my case I bought tooling as I needed it, that way I wasn't buying something that I may never have used.
Jim
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smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,269
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Post by smallbrother on Aug 10, 2021 12:43:33 GMT
As Jim says, buy what you need to do the next job.
You will never anticipate everything in advance, for example :-
There are tap and die sets available, the BA one is good as it covers every size. For the Model Engineer threads there are partial sets available, but there are numerous in between sizes you will also require. A box of dill bits from 6mm down is a good buy, but the smaller ones break easily and you will need to replace these.
Pete.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2021 13:26:26 GMT
I'd agree with the above, You'll never be able to have everything you need in one go, for a start it would cost a fortune. Chose your loco, hopefully, one with detailed building notes, and read through it. Make notes for each page of the materials required, any castings and then tooling. I copied all of the notes for 'Doncaster' and printed them out, all held together in a folder. I would then go through each page and write on the back of that page what was required to actually complete that stage. After a while, you'll find that the notes for what's needed get less or nothing as your tooling and material stock builds.
regards
Pete
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timb
Statesman
Posts: 512
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Post by timb on Aug 10, 2021 14:05:31 GMT
I echo those above. Look at the job in hand and decide what is needed. If you have it then great, if not look to buy, borrow or make.
If its a cutting tool eg tap, die, drill, lathe tool etc then look to buy, as Smallbrother says BA taps and dies are a good start, especially with LBSC designs - 3 1/5 G then 4-5-6-7-8 BA 5 G then 0-2-4-5-6BA. You will also need a range of ME taps and dies and a set of number and letter drills to go with them. There are a number of outlets selling reasonable quality carbon taps and dies at reasonable prices - but you get what you pay for - I tend to buy the best I can for cutting tools - HSS over carbon steel for example!
If its a tool holder or work holder, eg boring tool holder, lathe - tap or die holder, tool makers clamp etc then look to make them yourself. You will get a lot of satisfaction and improve skills as you go along. There are many books and articles - check the 'Workshop' book range and I particularly rate G H Thomas' books 'Workshop Techniques' and 'The Model Engineers Workshop Manual'. These both have small projects to build, most of which I have made over the years and have found invaluable. There are kits available also, check Hemmingway Kits online.
For the unusual stuff and perhaps more expensive machine tools for a one off then look to borrow.
In any event do not let your lack of kit stop you!!
Good luck!
Tim
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,909
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Post by JonL on Aug 10, 2021 14:39:17 GMT
Every single task on the locomotive is broken down into small tasks. I suggest you find something you fancy having a crack at, and make it to the drawing. You don't have to do it all in order if you organise yourself well.
Start with something simple, and the tools you need will soon become apparent. A good sharp set of drills is a good call to start with. Not many operations don't use one somewhere along the line
The first thing I made for my Britannia was the lubricator. I don't think I could have picked a more fiddly starting point!
I reckon a clack valve is a good starting point, any other suggestions?
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Post by andyhigham on Aug 10, 2021 15:12:47 GMT
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Post by chris vine on Aug 10, 2021 16:27:09 GMT
Hi Harry,
You can get sets of high quality drills (presto, dormer, guhring eg) from MSC Industrial Supply. Very reasonably priced I think, especially when they are on special offer. Definitely go for the sets which go up in steps of 0.1 mm. then you have tapping and clearance size drills for everything you need.
A set of BA taps and dies would be a good start. For Model Engineering, some ME style taps and dies are useful. You can nearly always use a finer pitch than specified, but not necessarily coarser. So some sizes like 3/16 1/4 5/16 x 32 or 40 TPI might be a good start. You will probably need both taps and dies for these. But best to look at plans to see which sizes you need rather than guessing. Also if you decide who you want to buy fittings and union nuts from, then that will guide you as to what TPI to go for as different supplies have their own ideas on this.
Smaller than 3/16 you can probably substitute BA sizes.
Small reamers are expensive and are not needed as often as you might think. I don't recommend second hand reamers as they can look good and be rubbish!!
centre punch Some centre drills or short spotting drills to start holes accurately. Steel Rule steel square scriber
6" digital caliper. Make sure it keeps its zero when switched off - some don't !!!
small engineers ball pein hammer. I will try to see what weight mine is...
These are all fairly cheap items, so you could start with these. Just be careful that someone doesn't tell you that you need to buy collet (chuck) etc in order to do accurate work - you don't.
for a first engine, choose something simple which you like and can finish in less than a decade. Your skill levels will increase as you go along and then you can build something more complex for your next project...
Hope that helps a little? Chris.
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tigermoth
Seasoned Member
Birthday 27 Aug 1941
Posts: 141
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Post by tigermoth on Aug 10, 2021 16:46:07 GMT
Agree with all the above especially in buying the best you can afford but would like to add Marking out Blue, you can use black marker pen but the blue is better.
Norman.
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kipford
Statesman
Building a Don Young 5" Gauge Aspinall Class 27
Posts: 566
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Post by kipford on Aug 10, 2021 17:53:02 GMT
Something you may wish to consider is using metric threads instead of BA sizes. Roger has done that on his loco build and I have done the same with my Don Young Aspinall, although I am using ME threads on the boiler and its fittings.
Dave
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lesstoneuk
Part of the e-furniture
Retired Omnibus navigation & velocity adjustment technician
Posts: 373
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Tooling
Aug 11, 2021 13:55:11 GMT
via mobile
Post by lesstoneuk on Aug 11, 2021 13:55:11 GMT
My recommendations are good hacksaw, or at least the blades, not the cheepo Chinese crap that loses its teeth quicker than a kid on Ribena. Always buy the best you can afford as buying cheap rarely works. You'll need some files, a set of needle files for small intricate work. A couple of larger files, either warding or the next size up, this is for basic shaping from the rough. Your centre punch can be home made, mine is from a long series Allen key. As said before some stuff isn't necessary and can be replaced by other things. Plan ahead, by the time you are doing a particular job, the tools are there ready. Do not underestimate the power of your friends at the club. They've been where you are and will quite often say "I got one of those doing nothing, you can have it". A four pack goes a long way if they won't take money.
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Post by 92220 on Aug 11, 2021 14:17:30 GMT
I found BA threads to be a better bet because the availablity of hex head screws in all sizes down to 14BA, is far easier than metric hex heads down to the equivalent size of M1.0. Metric hex heads are available from the German companies that I deal with for below M1.0, but they take a time to get, and are dramatically more expensive than suppliers like EKP, who generally get orders of within 24 hours. In fact it hasn't been unusual for me to order from EKP at 3.00pm and receive my order by 9.00am post, the next morning, including orders for steel bar. Pretty well all model engineering suppliers stock all the BA sizes down to 12BA but not all stock all metric equivalents.
Bob.
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Aug 13, 2021 16:43:47 GMT
I echo those above. Look at the job in hand and decide what is needed. If you have it then great, if not look to buy, borrow or make. If its a cutting tool eg tap, die, drill, lathe tool etc then look to buy, as Smallbrother says BA taps and dies are a good start, especially with LBSC designs - 3 1/5 G then 4-5-6-7-8 BA 5 G then 0-2-4-5-6BA. You will also need a range of ME taps and dies and a set of number and letter drills to go with them. There are a number of outlets selling reasonable quality carbon taps and dies at reasonable prices - but you get what you pay for - I tend to buy the best I can for cutting tools - HSS over carbon steel for example! [Snip] Good luck! Tim I echo the last bit, but not so much the sizes. The range of BA sizes you will need is not really a function of loco scale. On my 7 ¼” Paddington I have had to use 10BA and 12BA extensively. The only size I have had no use for is 0BA because there are several substitutes and spanner size becomes more relevant than thread size. And nobody uses 1BA and 3BA, though you still need 3BA spanners for ‘small head’ screws. It’s true you would have less use for big threads in small scales though. Much of my stock is carbon for historical reasons (inherited!) but if you pay extra for HSS you don’t only get superior materials; the actual manufacturing process is different and produces a better thread altogether. It is particularly noticeable in the smaller sizes. Starting out afresh though, there is something to be said for going metric, if only to future-proof your loco- but take account of all the advice about it on this thread. Getting very small metric screws with nice heads is no easier than BA in my experience. Gary
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Post by 92220 on Aug 14, 2021 8:00:53 GMT
Just a thought...One of the most handy accessories in my workshop is my little "Zeus handbook". Not expensive but well worth having....priced around the £6 mark. It has an imperial/metric conversion chart in 0.1 steps, plus Number/letter drill metric conversion chart, plus all the standard engineering thread charts, tapping and clearance sizes (not ME threads though). Plus it has charts for working out X and Y dimensions for various numbers of holes on P.C.D.s.
Bob.
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uuu
Elder Statesman
your message here...
Posts: 2,809
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Post by uuu on Aug 14, 2021 8:30:54 GMT
Talking of reference books - I find Tubal Cain's Model Engineer's Handbook a useful guide for many things.
Wilf
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Post by silverfox on Aug 14, 2021 10:01:57 GMT
For Taps and Dies and other bits I would take a look at Tracy Tools. superb service same as EKP.... and relatively cheap but not nasty Been going fro over 40 years...anyone remember them at Isleworth?
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johnd
Part of the e-furniture
Posts: 282
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Post by johnd on Aug 14, 2021 10:36:54 GMT
Every single task on the locomotive is broken down into small tasks. I suggest you find something you fancy having a crack at, and make it to the drawing. You don't have to do it all in order if you organise yourself well. Start with something simple, and the tools you need will soon become apparent. A good sharp set of drills is a good call to start with. Not many operations don't use one somewhere along the line The first thing I made for my Britannia was the lubricator. I don't think I could have picked a more fiddly starting point! I reckon a clack valve is a good starting point, any other suggestions? I echo the above, wise words. I was given similar advice when starting out by a wise old owl, worth is weight in gold. I started with the front bogie as it has a bit of everything, wheels, axles, chassis, riveting, tapping and machining a bogie stretcher. On top of that i got a real thrill when i pushed it up and down a couple of bit of angle. It gave me more of a bost than you can imagine. Seek advice from your fellow members it can save you time and a fortune. Best of luck
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Post by flyingfox on Aug 14, 2021 11:42:48 GMT
Greetings Silver Fox, I too remember the Isleworth store, and the one in Dartmouth, before they moved to the new emporium. Tracy, I am sure, is a lovely as ever. Flying Fox
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Post by pandsrowe on Aug 14, 2021 12:38:58 GMT
Being an old fuddy daddy I remember Tracey tools when they were in Kingston. Spent a number of lunchtimes perusing the goodies on offer and forever thankful that I bought then, as nowadays the pension would not stretch very far at all. Phil
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stevep
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,070
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Post by stevep on Aug 14, 2021 13:00:15 GMT
I hear many people advocating Tracey's Tools, but I have not had good experience with them. Some years ago, I ordered an 8mm drill (slack fit on 5/16" pin). When it arrived, it wouldn't cut, and when examined under a magnifying glass, the clearance on the cutting edges was negative. The flanks were rubbing, and preventing the cutting edge from cutting.
I have never dealt with them again.
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