|
Post by havoc on Apr 30, 2007 19:34:32 GMT
While this is a forum for the larger scales, this is about the inverse. How small can you make a working steam loco before it becomes impractical? So not just hard to make but thermodynamics starts working against you.
The question raised itself after reading about an exhibition where they asked for a working layout with limited surface. Since they are so obsessed with their electric trains I tought of pushing live steam into it. (I do have a rather bad character) But the surface is limited, so also the running possible. Switching would be just about possible.
The largest to squeeze into it would be Om (1:45 on 22mm gauge). But a tram engine on this scale means a boiler of 23mm (+/- 1") and 88mm (3.4") long. Wheels become 20mm etc. I have no idea yet what size of cylinders that would make. Mighty small I guess like 4-6mm diameter. (the idea of a tram engine is that you can hide some rather un-scale stuff and add some gears to lower the speed)
Has anyone experience with these sizes? Or is this uncharted territory?
|
|
|
Post by Phil Sutton on Apr 30, 2007 19:56:35 GMT
I seem to remember in the Railway Modeler,several years ago,an article about someone making live steam loco's in 4mm/ft scale,and what about Hornby's live steam Mallard in 4mm scale?
Phil
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2007 20:09:55 GMT
|
|
paul
Member
Posts: 8
|
Post by paul on Apr 30, 2007 20:40:37 GMT
I suppose it depends how much like a 'proper' engine it needs to be. Surely it would be possible to make cylinders smaller than 4mm bore provided a suitable material could be found? What sort of output you'd get from such a tiny steam engine I've no idea - but someone in the genius category like Baggo will probably tell us I'd be fascinated to see the outcome - go on, build one!
|
|
|
Post by havoc on Apr 30, 2007 20:41:56 GMT
I do hope they don't get any smaller! I have a lot of Z scale around, that were my trains before I started in this live sytream thing. But going to N and smaller than Z in live steam is going to masochism.
Do I take this as a hint that Om is feasible?
I'm not in it for the "exact scale trophy", more for the "look at that idiot" medal. ;D
I'm happy if it can pull a car (or two). That's why I would go for a tram engine, you can hide some gear-down.
|
|
paul
Member
Posts: 8
|
Post by paul on Apr 30, 2007 21:12:48 GMT
Why not just build a tiny simple oscillator (without hooking it up to anything) and see what happens?
|
|
|
Post by baggo on Apr 30, 2007 23:13:09 GMT
I remember reading an exhibition report in ME some time ago that described some 'micro' oscillating engines made by an American chap I think. They were so small that onlookers had to use a magnifying glass to see them working! Unfortunately I can't find any reference to them in the indexes so I can't give an issue number.
Many years ago I experimented with the idea of an electrically heated boiler to use in an 'OO' gauge steam loco. The heating element was wound from resistance wire and operated from a 12 volt transformer, the idea being that the voltage would be fed to the boiler from the track. Pity I didn't pursue the idea as I would have beaten Hornby to it by 30 years!
John
|
|
|
Post by havoc on May 1, 2007 10:20:21 GMT
I'm definitely not going that small! Okay, so it can be done and the easiest to see if and how it will work is a prototype. I have about a month to make one. I'll start by copying the "plans" I have to the intended size.
An idea that hit me was to make the burner (butane) and the cylinder block as a single item. Not necessarily in one piece. So the waste heat of the burner can be used to eliminate condensation and lock-up.
|
|
|
Post by Nigel Bennett on May 1, 2007 11:58:12 GMT
Brain Caton in Yorkshire has built many very small steam locos - he's been to the Harrogate Show, but not in recent years, with an 009 layout, using mostly tram engines with geared-down engines. They run for miles - literally - at exhibitions! He's also built a fleet of Isle of Man Beyer-Peacocks (and Caledonia) in 4mm scale, all steam. He's converted several standard "Hornby" 00 type locos to steam operation, as well as building 0 gauge live steam. His workmanship is exquisite and his output prodigious. I don't think he spends much time watching TV....
|
|
paul
Member
Posts: 8
|
Post by paul on May 1, 2007 12:23:37 GMT
He's obviously a genius with a name like that!
|
|
chris vine
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,105
Member is Online
|
Post by chris vine on May 1, 2007 21:32:47 GMT
There was a lovely exhibit at Harrogate a few years ago. It was a model factory built by a German man. There were all sorts of perfect machine tools, lathes, mills, shapers. All with power feed and all cutting little blocks of metal. The whole shop was driven by overhead shafts run from a Stuart No. 9.
If you looked in through one of the windows (as opposed to through the glass front) it was like travelling back in a time machine.
He had on display, in the factory, some model oscillator engines he had made on the tiny machines. From memory one of them had a bore of 1mm and it worked on air so would certainly run on steam.
I would love to see this exhibited again. Can anyone remember his name? Or know him so that he can be persuaded to show it again. I would travel a long way to see it.
Chris.
|
|
simonwass
Part of the e-furniture
Cecil Pagets 2-6-2 of 1908. Engine number 2299. Would make a fascinating model....
Posts: 472
|
Post by simonwass on May 1, 2007 22:16:54 GMT
The guy that invented the Hornby system is Richard Hallam, he gets royalties on each one sold. He thought up the idea in 1964 and made a workable version in '68. I'm sure he has some sort of patent out, he'd be a fool not to have done so. I have the clipping from the Telegraph from a few years ago when the Hornby models were unveiled, it says there was an article in British Railway Modelling. The photo in the clipping shows a fine looking brass built LMS black 5 blowing off. Simon Many years ago I experimented with the idea of an electrically heated boiler to use in an 'OO' gauge steam loco. The heating element was wound from resistance wire and operated from a 12 volt transformer, the idea being that the voltage would be fed to the boiler from the track. Pity I didn't pursue the idea as I would have beaten Hornby to it by 30 years! John
|
|
simonwass
Part of the e-furniture
Cecil Pagets 2-6-2 of 1908. Engine number 2299. Would make a fascinating model....
Posts: 472
|
Post by simonwass on May 1, 2007 22:23:16 GMT
|
|
|
Post by baggo on May 1, 2007 23:31:21 GMT
Chris,
Would it have been in 2002? ME reports on a miniature workshop by Stephan Kastner powered by it's own steam engine and boiler.
Simon,
Oh well, they say there's nothing new under the Sun!
John
|
|
|
Post by mmaidnz on May 2, 2007 4:11:03 GMT
At one of our public days we had a stand of the O gauge club.One of their engines was live steam,running on meths,so it's definitly possible in that size.
|
|
|
Post by Tel on May 2, 2007 8:49:32 GMT
The late Arthur Sherwood built a number of miniscule live steam locomotives - one I remember seening was running around a dinner plate sized circle of (6 or 8mm?) track.
|
|
|
Post by Shawki Shlemon on May 2, 2007 8:55:10 GMT
Some months ago I found a site www.fielder-rowe.freeserve.co.uk/steam.html which had the details of late A.A. Sherwood engines which includes the following:- 4-8-0 , 2-8-2 , 4-6-2 and every one of these engines overall length with tender is less than 5" and are fully steam operated . I have not seen the engines but a member in our club has seen one in steam .I tried to access the site today but without success , may be the sit no longer exist . At the time I printed the pages but I can not place them on this site because of copy wright . The scale is 1/240 . I am willing to email them to interested members privately .
|
|
|
Post by chameleonrob on May 2, 2007 19:45:20 GMT
Some months ago I found a site www.fielder-rowe.freeserve.co.uk/steam.html which had the details of late A.A. Sherwood engines which includes the following:- 4-8-0 , 2-8-2 , 4-6-2 and every one of these engines overall length with tender is less than 5" and are fully steam operated . I have not seen the engines but a member in our club has seen one in steam .I tried to access the site today but without success , may be the sit no longer exist . At the time I printed the pages but I can not place them on this site because of copy wright . The scale is 1/240 . I am willing to email them to interested members privately . I think the name of the website has changed, USRA posted a link to a site about AA Sherwood, I used to have the old site bookmarked but deleted it when I couldn't access it anymore. rob
|
|
chris vine
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,105
Member is Online
|
Post by chris vine on May 2, 2007 21:31:36 GMT
Hi Baggo,
The name Stephan Kastner rings a bell. I would not have thought it as long ago as 2002 but time plays tricks!!
Is anyone in Contact with him? It would be wonderful if he would come to the ME exhibition at Ascot......
Chris.
|
|
|
Post by Shawki Shlemon on May 3, 2007 10:47:13 GMT
I have received few requests for the copies of the pages of the miniature engine , I will wait until 15/ 5 giving time for any other request and will email them all together .
|
|