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Post by andyhigham on Mar 16, 2015 20:20:18 GMT
I actually think Adam is doing MORE engineering. Rather than buy expensive and possibly iffy castings he is designing his own patterns to ensure his castings are "right". The only difference is the method of pattern making.
Drawing using a cad program is no different to drawing on a board with a pencil, just some extra tools are available - Zoom in/out, erase, copy etc
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uuu
Elder Statesman
your message here...
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Post by uuu on Mar 16, 2015 20:59:36 GMT
Weaving is additive manufacturing?
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baldric
E-xcellent poster
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Post by baldric on Mar 16, 2015 22:03:28 GMT
Weaving is additive manufacturing? Is fabricating instead of casting? |
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Post by simplyloco on Mar 16, 2015 22:36:37 GMT
Weaving is additive manufacturing? Is fabricating instead of casting? Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what "irony" is? Baldrick: Yes, it's like "goldy" and "bronzy" only it's made out of iron Luvvit! John |
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Midland
Elder Statesman
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Post by Midland on Mar 17, 2015 9:33:29 GMT
I did operations research at university and studied PERT (Programme Evaluation and Review Technique). Upon joining industry (manufacturing North American freight cars) the engineers introduced me to the Product Engineering Network at the C1 Level. That interfaced with the Program and Product Evaluation Review, who sent their work to the Director Research and Work Integration nominating Group. This group then guided the men working in our factories to build tank cars and other railway vehicles. It worked quite well. But that was before Can anyone draw and can anyone makeit came in! Oh well back the model engineer for a good read!! Cheers D Just having a little naughty and no-one got it!! Product Engineering Network at the C1 Level = Pencil Program and Product Evaluation Review = Paper Director Research and Work Integration nominating Group = Drawing Well you guys can figure out the rest!!!!! D PS And I speelt them wrigyht. |
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Post by andyhigham on Mar 17, 2015 9:43:50 GMT
I always thought irony was what wifey used to remove wrinkles from shirts
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2015 15:59:43 GMT
now then perhaps this will be the answer to getting the ultimate 3D print, ie no layers so no steps..... a totally new idea for a small 3D printing machine... well they say new but the first time 3D printing was mentioned years ago in my industry they were basically big tanks of resin that an object was solidified within so a similar result to how this small printer works here although in this case it isn't created via a laser but by light through a hologram, pretty clever. www.vox.com/2015/3/16/8227627/3d-printing-liquid-continuous |
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Post by Cro on Mar 17, 2015 16:07:43 GMT
Make it work with wax and I'd get one!
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Post by alanstepney on Mar 17, 2015 17:34:56 GMT
I suspect there will be several technologies before things settle down.
Dot matrix printers were the norm, but now only appear in special applicatons.
But, no matter how it is done, I am sure that 3D printing will come in and be available to use at home before too long.
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 19, 2015 21:24:02 GMT
Joan There have been literally thousands of words posted on here discussing this era: there is a whole section devoted to Modelworks builds. I had a close look at a part built Modelworks A4 and it was a disaster area. 'JJ' on here built a rather fine Modelworks 5" Britannia, but it required extensive time spent on modifications before he deemed it satisfactory. The full story of his build and the problems encountered is here: www.britanniabuilder.com/ and very comprehensive it is too! John Hi John, I did read the brittania builder site months ago. I will have another look at it as I think I may be able now to pick some more details. Will look as well to the Modelworks threads because I haven't done so as I wasn't aware of their interest. But according to what I have read so far, most of the problems seem to arise from badly designed parts that need some rework to fit together. If this is the major problem, it is something that I expect to be able to overcome given my approach at it. Ok. So I read some more and I found that the problems with Modelworks come down to defective or incomplete parts. Now, can someone explain me why this should affect me, as per the reliability and performance of my locomotive , please? |
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Post by simplyloco on Mar 19, 2015 21:32:53 GMT
Joan
Your original question was "Julian, which are the "bad experiences" you (all) had with such 'kit built' locos. Please, would you mind to share what happened or what was wrong on the 'kits' you mention?
"
We have shown you where the problems were encountered: if they do do not apply to your locomotive then why worry yourself - or the rest of us - about it?
John
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Post by Cro on Mar 19, 2015 21:38:54 GMT
Joan,
I don't think anyone is implying that the fact modelworks and Winson couldn't produce good quality parts will have an effect on the reliability and performance of your loco but that the past has shown sourcing CNC parts for EVERY aspect of a loco, especially complex locos such as piston valve locos, has been shown in the past to be a bad way of manufacturing a loco. If it were as simple as ordering all the parts in (cost aside) most models out there would be a hell of a lot better than they are but its not quite as simple as that.
If we look at Rogers Speedy build back before he went away on his trip he was machining the valves - now ok he is trying new methods to get a perfect seal but how many times did he have to re-make the bobbins and associated parts to get it how he wants it for now (now I'm not saying that it won't work and be a perfect seal when the time comes but I'm sure he'll admit there is a chance he may have to do another iteration or possibly 2 before he is 100% happy with it - Sorry Roger not a dig promise!) But I know from experience bobbins are extremely hard to get right first time.
I think what people are trying to say is that its not as simple as ordering loads of parts and that a home workshop to make certain bit, adjust bits and 'fettle' is the best way forward.
That's how I see it I guess I may be completely wrong......
Adam
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Post by simplyloco on Mar 19, 2015 21:55:04 GMT
Joan, SNIP. I think what people are trying to say is that its not as simple as ordering loads of parts and that a home workshop to make certain bit, adjust bits and 'fettle' is the best way forward. That's how I see it I guess I may be completely wrong...... Adam Somehow I don't think so... John |
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 19, 2015 22:08:31 GMT
Joan Your original question was "Julian, which are the "bad experiences" you (all) had with such 'kit built' locos. Please, would you mind to share what happened or what was wrong on the 'kits' you mention? " We have shown you where the problems were encountered: if they do do not apply to your locomotive then why worry yourself - or the rest of us - about it? John Because I want to learn about what can be wrong and what went wrong for others. The original statement from Julian made me think that there were severe possible problems that needed careful consideration. |
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 19, 2015 22:34:58 GMT
hi Joan,
as Adam very correctly pointed out its called 'fettling' and quite a bit else. (we had a thread on the 'art of fettling' awhile back). Adam has one of the 'kit built' locos we mentioned and has no doubt had to strip it down and start again!
i think it boils down to a number of things.
firstly, although a steam loco is inherently simple, to get one to work well and reliably requires quite a lot of 'know how'. none of this is a mystic art or unknown only to a privileged few - the info is all out there if you look for it. a steam loco can be very forgiving of some things, but not others.
secondly, its a case of fitting bits together. many years ago i had the task of putting together a new club loco made as very large joint enterprise by many very experienced time served engineers (which i am decidedly not!). all were issued with drawings for the parts they were individually making. a combination of what might have appeared as insignificant drawing errors and machining errors produced a loco that wouldnt fit together at all and it was another 12 months before the loco had it's first steaming, during which a lot of work was required to amend and alter bits.
thirdly, is over simplification. this is perhaps where Modelworks and Winsons failed, as some bits need to be very well made using the right materials and not just milled out of brass. other design considerations require a lot more, and what you would get away with on a 0-4-0 tank loco wont apply to a big pacific loco!
fourthly, to produce a good working loco you require a bit of luck (or perhaps judgement) in choosing a loco that ultimately will perform ok. i dont think that your own loco will be a problem here as it seems to tick all the right boxes except for being gas fired!
cheers,
julian
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 19, 2015 22:45:29 GMT
Joan, I don't think anyone is implying that the fact modelworks and Winson couldn't produce good quality parts will have an effect on the reliability and performance of your loco but that the past has shown sourcing CNC parts for EVERY aspect of a loco, especially complex locos such as piston valve locos, has been shown in the past to be a bad way of manufacturing a loco. If it were as simple as ordering all the parts in (cost aside) most models out there would be a hell of a lot better than they are but its not quite as simple as that. If we look at Rogers Speedy build back before he went away on his trip he was machining the valves - now ok he is trying new methods to get a perfect seal but how many times did he have to re-make the bobbins and associated parts to get it how he wants it for now (now I'm not saying that it won't work and be a perfect seal when the time comes but I'm sure he'll admit there is a chance he may have to do another iteration or possibly 2 before he is 100% happy with it - Sorry Roger not a dig promise!) But I know from experience bobbins are extremely hard to get right first time. I think what people are trying to say is that its not as simple as ordering loads of parts and that a home workshop to make certain bit, adjust bits and 'fettle' is the best way forward. That's how I see it I guess I may be completely wrong...... Adam Thank you very much Adam, this is the kind of answer I was looking for, as it clearly states what the issue is. Of course, you are not wrong! Maybe one of the problems with a 'pure' kit is that all the parts are possibly made independently, possibly in batches, and it is difficult to get all of them right or to have them a good fit with other parts. I also suspect that people attempting to make a loco from a kit may not understand some aspects of the locomotive, such as for example the valve gear, and some may expect that all the parts would simply fit together as provided. I think one difference with what I attempt to do is that I am designing everything myself, so I can think in advance what can be wrong in the final assembly, or what is the best design to prevent assembly issues or other problems. I mean what I do is not as simple as just ordering a bunch of parts, as I attempt to do something more. As this will be my first loco, I expect to have not just a few but a lot of problems. Some derived from my own design decisions and some derived from my lack of experience on actually building a loco. So this is why I insist in sharing BAD experiences. Maybe we can open a thread just for that. I do not think that everybody got it right on his first time, and sharing failures is a totally constructive thing to do. If I get some support on this I will start a thread on this. Ok, I am opening a thread on this. |
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 19, 2015 22:55:09 GMT
hi Joan, as Adam very correctly pointed out its called 'fettling' and quite a bit else. (we had a thread on the 'art of fettling' awhile back). Adam has one of the 'kit built' locos we mentioned and has no doubt had to strip it down and start again! i think it boils down to a number of things. firstly, although a steam loco is inherently simple, to get one to work well and reliably requires quite a lot of 'know how'. none of this is a mystic art or unknown only to a privileged few - the info is all out there if you look for it. a steam loco can be very forgiving of some things, but not others. secondly, its a case of fitting bits together. many years ago i had the task of putting together a new club loco made as very large joint enterprise by many very experienced time served engineers (which i am decidedly not!). all were issued with drawings for the parts they were individually making. a combination of what might have appeared as insignificant drawing errors and machining errors produced a loco that wouldnt fit together at all and it was another 12 months before the loco had it's first steaming, during which a lot of work was required to amend and alter bits. thirdly, is over simplification. this is perhaps where Modelworks and Winsons failed, as some bits need to be very well made using the right materials and not just milled out of brass. other design considerations require a lot more, and what you would get away with on a 0-4-0 tank loco wont apply to a big pacific loco! fourthly, to produce a good working loco you require a bit of luck (or perhaps judgement) in choosing a loco that ultimately will perform ok. i dont think that your own loco will be a problem here as it seems to tick all the right boxes except for being gas fired! cheers, julian Hi Julian, Thanks for your reply. This is as well a post that properly answers the question. I may now refrain from opening a new tread as I feel the question was mostly answered. If you or others think that something could be added to this, please do post it here or in a properly titled thread. Thanks. |
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Post by simplyloco on Mar 19, 2015 22:57:05 GMT
I have no wish to be seen as or act as a moderator, but shouldn't this discussion be held in your own 'informells' thread? After all, this thread was started as 'additive manufacturing' and looks like getting clogged up like all the others...
John
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Post by Cro on Mar 19, 2015 23:07:47 GMT
John you do like keeping things on topic  as a nice side note it has its relevance in modern manufacturing that ties in with additive manufacturing but I think maybe best left now or carried on in your thread possibly Joan. All I will say is as it is your first loco I would have possibly gone for something simpler in published design, doesn't mean you can't try producing it in the same way you are now but at least you know the theory behind it is proven. Back to 3D printed stuff....I am going to be looking into some lost wax stainless castings soon for a 5" Duchess using 3D printed patterns, anyone had experience with casting stainless? Adam |
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 19, 2015 23:07:53 GMT
I have no wish to be seen as or act as a moderator, but shouldn't this discussion be held in your own 'informells' thread? After all, this thread was started as 'additive manufacturing' and looks like getting clogged up again... John Well maybe. This is why I offered to open a new tread only to share 'bad' experiences (see one or two posts above). I do not think that this applies particularly to my build, although of course that would be useful to me. If you have something more to add, please start something such as "'kit' issues and other bad experiences" or something to that effect. Thanks |
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as a nice side note it has its relevance in modern manufacturing that ties in with additive manufacturing but I think maybe best left now or carried on in your thread possibly Joan.