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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2015 11:57:24 GMT
This is text from a pm posted here as requested :
" I have to admit to only a passing interest, so far, in 3D printing - mainly due to cost. I was wondering if the printed Stainless Steel products are of the same structural strength as machined from solid or if the printing process is inherently weaker, which is my gut feeling. "
Very valid comment .
Depends on many things . The essential process is that of casting metal bit by bit . At worst the printed part is a rather porous weak casting . At best it is as good as a best quality casting . So far not as good as a piece of hot rolled bar - maybe one day .
A lot depends also on what happens after printing . Quite commonly the printed part is subject to complex heat treatment when intended for use in critical applications . Any jet engine parts would also be rigorously tested using advanced techniques like Xray 3D imaging .
Touching on other remarks in the thread . Someone mentioned that all this is alien and beyond their ken . Ask an older pupil in school today what they think about it and they would say that seems easy enough - I'll have a go at that .
Different background education in different eras has trained older people to be good at traditional things and younger people to be good at newer things .
Sad though that the 'new' learning seems to displace the 'old' learning rather than enhance and add to it .
Regards ,
Michael .
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 15, 2015 12:04:58 GMT
Someone mentioned that all this is alien and beyond their ken . Ask an older pupil in school today what they think about it and they would say that seems easy enough . That's absolutely a fact. I learned all the basics from my 13 years old daughter. |
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 15, 2015 12:12:10 GMT
Eventually, I just received an email from Shapedways offering me a 10% discount for the parts I have in my shopping cart. Not sure how to interpret that. It's already becoming tempting.
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jem
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,075
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Post by jem on Mar 15, 2015 17:39:52 GMT
Thanks very much Chris,
Jem
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Post by alanstepney on Mar 15, 2015 19:32:51 GMT
From the information here, and the comments, I think it will be some time before such equipment is common in our workshops.
However, I am certain that that time will come, and feel it is worth keeping an eye on it to see how it progresses.
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Midland
Elder Statesman
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Post by Midland on Mar 15, 2015 19:52:52 GMT
Hello All
I think the lot of you have lost the plot!!!! Is not model engineering about making models (in miniature of) what has be already made by others. That was what the LBSC contribution to the Model Engineer was all about followed by Martin Evans, Don Young and others who have contributed with their designs.
If you are a computer friek, why not go to a computer site or start a new thread.
But surely can we simple chaps trying to do it with our lathes and milling machines be left alone. To muddle on?
Cheers David
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 15, 2015 21:37:47 GMT
Hello All I think the lot of you have lost the plot!!!! Is not model engineering about making models (in miniature of) what has be already made by others. That was what the LBSC contribution to the Model Engineer was all about followed by Martin Evans, Don Young and others who have contributed with their designs. If you are a computer friek, why not go to a computer site or start a new thread. But surely can we simple chaps trying to do it with our lathes and milling machines be left alone. To muddle on? Cheers David Hi David. What you raise is very interesting. However, please consider this: (1) the old model engineers you mentioned also designed custom miniature locomotives that did never exist in full scale. I suppose we can not call such locomotives a "model" in the full meaning of the word, but I think they still are models in the sense that they are like miniature versions of (non existing) full scale ones. (2) The engineers you mention used the technology that was available to them at the time. They could not use Computers, or Computer Forums, or CAD, or CNC, or 3D printing. But I am absolutely sure they would have used such technologies if they had been available to them. I read LBSC book and he exhibits such an abstractive, procedural, almost surgical, way of doing things that it is impossible for me to think that he would have avoided Computer Aided Design, and CNC, if such technologies had been available to them. (3) I do not see why we should not allow somebody to design something new, and build a working concept of it even if it is a locomotive that did not exist (or could have never existed) in full scale. Moreover, allowing the design to embrace any technology that is available today. About going to a computer site this is my experience: (1) I posted a couple of questions about miniature steam locomotive design in a Computer Programmers site (more specifically Stack Overflow), but my question was rejected right away by the moderators because it was considered out of topic and of no of interest for the computer geeks joining the community. (2) I posted a couple of questions about miniature steam locomotive design in a Model Engineering site (more specifically ME Clearing House) and got a bunch of replies recommending me to forget about it and stick to one of the existing LBSC or Don Young designs. After a lot of thought I decided to stick to (2) because at least I got some replies from forum members and my questions were not considered out of topic by the moderators of the site. |
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Post by runner42 on Mar 15, 2015 21:53:22 GMT
From the information here, and the comments, I think it will be some time before such equipment is common in our workshops. However, I am certain that that time will come, and feel it is worth keeping an eye on it to see how it progresses. I assume the first inroads will be from ME Suppliers advertising small parts that are often difficult to make and provide detail that could not be achieved by the average model engineer. That's assuming there is a sufficiently large market to make the venture cost effective.
Brian
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 15, 2015 22:02:50 GMT
From the information here, and the comments, I think it will be some time before such equipment is common in our workshops. However, I am certain that that time will come, and feel it is worth keeping an eye on it to see how it progresses. I assume the first inroads will be from ME Suppliers advertising small parts that are often difficult to make and provide detail that could not be achieved by the average model engineer. That's assuming there is a sufficiently large market to make the venture cost effective.
Brian
Adam (cro) is already making extraordinarily detailed parts which production involves 3D printing technology. modeleng.proboards.com/thread/10048/stanier-combined-steam-vacuum-valves |
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Post by Cro on Mar 15, 2015 22:46:23 GMT
Thanks for the promotion there Joan, I can honestly say it is no way viable for someone like myself, who is trying to set up a small business in doing these sorts of fittings using 3D printing, to go out and buy a 3D printer to do what I am after - might be because I am only just about to graduate but still!
I am lucky I have a very good contact and friend willing to help me out with my work. It may seem extremely simple to think you create something in 3D and send it over to a printer but a lot have time (more than actually drawing the parts) has gone into being able to print some of my bits to make sure they can be printed in wax and cast properly ensuring support material can be removed, runners are placed correctly to allow flow of molten metal and so on.
I have no had any experience with metal printing but from the examples I have seen the surface finish would be no-where near good enough for something like motion work but I imagine it is possible but it again would come down to costs of a machine good enough.
Adam
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 15, 2015 22:50:25 GMT
on 12th march i posted that so far as many model engineers are concerned they need some convincing to use a loco with scale boiler fittings, preferring instead chunky easily seen overscale boiler fittings.
i take the view (rightly or wrongly) that from a cost point of view at the current time, and taking into the account the capital cost of a lathe and workshop machinery, the home workshop cant be beaten.
in a few years time this might all change of course. but rather like David (Midland) i would rather expend energy with a hacksaw and file and bench vice than be sat in front of a computer in my spare time!
we had a very bad experience a few years ago with 'kit built' locos in the UK that did the hobby no credit whatsoever, and left many out of pocket and very disappointed. this suggests to me there are no short cuts where miniature loco building is concerned - if you want to end up with a decent reliably performing loco that wont fall to bits after a few runs.
cheers,
julian
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Post by Cro on Mar 15, 2015 22:58:14 GMT
Julian I think you are right that you can't go wrong with a well fitted out workshop with the correct tools and knowledge to use them. Many will read my post and think "he's just a young guy stuck in front of a PC for too long" whereas I have got involved in all I do because I don't have a workshop whilst at uni but love my hobby and want to do something towards it whilst I am away from home.
I love the idea of using these modern techniques but everything needs that little bit extra in the workshop to finish it off, the only kit locos to go together 99% of the time are Polly locos and they aren't scale or prototypical so these things really do need good facilities to do them right and hopefully the skills won't get lost over the years.
Adam
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 16, 2015 7:45:04 GMT
I would rather expend energy with a hacksaw and file and bench vice than be sat in front of a computer in my spare time! Hi Julian. Using a computer to make things can be very satisfying and a highly creative experience. Think for example on the thousands of people creating smartphone apps for instance. They do really enjoy themselves. I've been there for 5 years before I decided to learn about model engineering. Creating apps is really a highly challenging task, and and as said very satisfying when you get things done. Also 3D CAD drawing is something you can enjoy a lot in front of a computer. I've learned how to draw in a computer less than 6 months ago, so I'm just a beginner, but I really enjoy myself at it even if I am able to use maybe only 5% of what the software can do!. I suppose this all depends on your background, and I fully understand your statement which is also shared by others, because after all this is a ME forum, but I just wanted to show that this can not be regarded as a general feeling. Anyway, please look at my next post, as I'd like to ask a more specific question, you may able to help with. |
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 16, 2015 8:19:00 GMT
we had a very bad experience a few years ago with 'kit built' locos in the UK that did the hobby no credit whatsoever, and left many out of pocket and very disappointed. this suggests to me there are no short cuts where miniature loco building is concerned - if you want to end up with a decent reliably performing loco that wont fall to bits after a few runs. cheers, julian Hi Julian, With the risk of this being a bit off topic in this thread -if so I can open another one just for this- I want to ask a question. Not only to you, but specially to you.
As most of you know, I am a complete beginner on ME, as I have yet to complete my first loco. You also know that I have read a lot and I spend a lot of time attempting to learn all and every single aspect of small locomotive design. I also opened my own build tread and made a lot of questions in this forums which answers are assisting me to (hopefully) avoid or at least minimise common missteps. I fully understand as well that my approach is not 'standard' and thus it may create some kind of rejection, which I completely accept and understand. This subject has already been thoroughly discussed in my own 'lsfornells' tread and I have given my reasons, which are ultimately based on my previous background and what interests me more. I think there is nothing more to add over this. The statement from Julian I quoted above is implicit in many answers to my questions, specially the ones I initially posted on my thread. I am convinced (maybe wrongly) that some of the disappointments and lack of reliability that Julian mentions should not depend on the particular method used to build a locomotive, provided the locomotive starts from a good design. So I am greatly interested in your experiences, and more particularly on the bad ones. Because everybody needs to fail before learning how to stand. Julian, which are the "bad experiences" you (all) had with such 'kit built' locos. Please, would you mind to share what happened or what was wrong on the 'kits' you mention? Thanks. |
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Post by simplyloco on Mar 16, 2015 8:34:34 GMT
Joan There have been literally thousands of words posted on here discussing this era: there is a whole section devoted to Modelworks builds. I had a close look at a part built Modelworks A4 and it was a disaster area. 'JJ' on here built a rather fine Modelworks 5" Britannia, but it required extensive time spent on modifications before he deemed it satisfactory. The full story of his build and the problems encountered is here: www.britanniabuilder.com/ and very comprehensive it is too! John |
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Post by ejparrott on Mar 16, 2015 9:27:19 GMT
John sums it up well. Modelworks was the problem, Winsons before them. They sold kits on the promise that you only needed hand tools to build a working miniature steam engine. That couldn't have been further from the truth in sooo many cases. There was a 14XX being built in Bridgend I heard about....one piston was 1/4" too big to fit in the bore. The first of their Britannia's to run was a Swansea based engine I used to drive, the wheel's wouldn't rotate a full turn once the rods were fitted because they came up and smacked the bottom of the motion bracket...simple hand tools were never going to build those engines!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 9:54:21 GMT
To many people Model Engineering is a heritage activity . Using traditional skills to make traditional things .
A smaller number of people like to explore their own original designs and use more modern design and manufacturing methods .
Probably 95% + heritage and 5% - original design and modern methods .
I like to do both - just finding the best path to what I want to do .
Michael
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 10:30:58 GMT
Back on the original topic of additive manufacture -
(1) It's not actually new . Scanning weld deposition machines and gel bath rapid prototyping systems have been around since the 1950's .
Needed computers and lasers to make them really viable so little progress in earlier years - though the weld deposition machines where extensively used in a cruder form for putting hard facing on steel components .
Anyone wants an interesting project try designing and building a wire feed scanning weld deposition machine using all modern technology .
(2) Predictions about the pace of technological development are almost always wrong . I wouldn't be surprised if laser metal deposition machines become cheap enough and easy enough to use in home workshops in less than 5 years .
(3) Single atom metal deposition machines already exist - 5 years to practical version and 10 years to home use ?
Michael
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 16, 2015 11:08:20 GMT
Joan There have been literally thousands of words posted on here discussing this era: there is a whole section devoted to Modelworks builds. I had a close look at a part built Modelworks A4 and it was a disaster area. 'JJ' on here built a rather fine Modelworks 5" Britannia, but it required extensive time spent on modifications before he deemed it satisfactory. The full story of his build and the problems encountered is here: www.britanniabuilder.com/ and very comprehensive it is too! John Hi John, I did read the brittania builder site months ago. I will have another look at it as I think I may be able now to pick some more details. Will look as well to the Modelworks threads because I haven't done so as I wasn't aware of their interest. But according to what I have read so far, most of the problems seem to arise from badly designed parts that need some rework to fit together. If this is the major problem, it is something that I expect to be able to overcome given my approach at it. |
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Post by 3405jimmy on Mar 16, 2015 14:51:21 GMT
Is it just me but to paraphrase Ms. Morissette I am finding it a bit ironic that I should be criticised for being on a computer and not hacking and sawing by people with thousands of post to their name?  |
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