5" gauge Britannia (a builder's diary)

[GeorgeRay]

Gentlemen as Steve has requested please cease making comments about the capabilities of people who are not members of the forum. Remember this is a public forum in that anyone can read it. I feel that in order to prevent bringing the forum into disrepute I must accede to Steves request and have deleted the messages that make any reference to IoW Boiler inspectors.

George

[JonL]

Jul 2, 2019 0:55:40 GMT jma1009 said:

And I would not silver solder the tubes to the combustion chamber tubeplate before silver soldering up the combustion chamber tubeplate to it's wrapper.

But what do I know?

I suspect it isn't what you do or don't know half the time, but how the keyboard translates the best intentions into blunt instruments. I've often thought that kind advice face to face can sound rather brutal when delivered through a forum. We've all done it, here or otherwise. Your experience is obvious, it's just sometimes its delivery is stripped of what is probably kindly and friendly advice were it being discussed over a pint rather than a laptop.

[Jim]

Jul 2, 2019 19:44:02 GMT GeorgeRay said:

Gentlemen as Steve has requested please cease making comments about the capabilities of people who are not members of the forum. Remember this is a public forum in that anyone can read it. I feel that in order to prevent bringing the forum into disrepute I must accede to Steves request and have deleted the messages that make any reference to IoW Boiler inspectors.

George

Thank you George. I for one appreciate what you have done and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Jim

[jma1009]

Setting aside the hiatus, and which I am totally guilty in provoking, and which I apologise for,

Let me address Richard and Brian's comments.

Alec Farmer (Richard's point) I don't recall advising silver soldering the tubes to the inner firebox tubeplate before having silver soldered the wrapper to same and forming the inner firebox and silver soldering on the crown stays.

In Steve's case he has a combustion chamber which is always problematic (and isn't covered in Alec's book of a oxy-acetylene 5"g GWR Manor boiler).

So to Brian's point. It is a simple matter of working out the mass of heating up and what might be damaged in the process. Especially with propane. The tubes are less thick than the firebox tubeplate and the wrapper. In my experience, you do the inner firebox wrapper to front inner firebox tubeplate first (after doing the outer boiler). This would especially be the case with a combustion chamber inner firebox boiler.

I think Pete's Doncaster build with pics shows this to be how recently Paul silver soldered all this up, as a commercial boiler maker. Paul's pic's supplied to Pete and posted on here support my own view.

It is more difficult to silver solder the mass of inner firebox wrapper to firebox tubeplate plus if appropriate crown stays. Doing the tubes afterwards to the firebox tubeplate plus inner wrapper is then relatively easy.

However, the first few stages would be to silver solder up the tapered barrel in Steve's case, and do the joint with the throatplate and outer boiler firebox wrapper, and in my case also the front section of the foundation ring suitably stepped at it's ends.

I will make no comment on whether Steve's stated proceedure for silver soldering up the tubes to the combustion chamber tubeplate has been the result of 'other' advice, but it would not be the way to go IMHO, and a recipe for disaster IMHO. John 'Simplyloco' had a very expensive experience with a Brit boiler that resulted in a most unfortunate failure.

Cheers,

Julian

[ettingtonliam]

Julian
I refer you to pages 72,73 and 74, paras 102, 103 and 104 of Alec's book.

I did it that way for Locomotion's tubes, because it seemed to me much easier to ensure all tube ends are securely soldered when working from the firebox side of the tubeplate, than when working from the water side. I used 38% silver content solder for tubes to tubeplate, then 55% for tubeplate to firebox shell. Purely my preference for a very simple boiler, not IMHO really worth arguing over. Each to his own .

Richard

[jma1009]

Hi Richard,

Thank you for that post. I don't have Alec's book, but it was specifically about a 5"g GWR Manor boiler. I got it on loan from the Portsmouth library in the 1990s which had a copy, and wrote out a detailed precis of notes. Alec was using oxy-acetylene, with if I recall correctly, an appendix if doing with propane.

I spent a week or two staying very close to the 'Reeves' Marston Green emporium in 1990, and went in almost daily to discuss matters and spend rather more than I ought to have done. Alec and I also had a few phone calls a few years later on. I had exactly the same a few years later with Reg Chambers when I did modifications and drawings for the Martin Evans 'Super Simplex' boiler. Met John Ellis a few years later (who made Alan Redgrave's splendid 5"g GWR'The Great Bear'boiler in the last few years), and we didn't talk about the weather!

I can remember a number of occasions when the late Arthur Grimmett (IWMES boiler inspector till his death in 1996) refused to sign a test certificate for a boiler on those halcyon Saturday afternoons at the Aptule Works in Apse Heath. Slightly before my time, he insisted on extra stays on one of John deBank's boilers, if not a few others, and Arthur certainly refused a certificate on the late Peter Brown's 5"g Don Young Hunslet initially, because "it was pissing water everywhere" which I was witness to pumping up the test rig at the time!

After Arthur's death, the late Albert North was quickly elected another boiler inspector for the IWMES. Albert had made a 5"g GWR King boiler, and 2 5"g Brit boilers, which I have already commented upon. He had also made a 5"g 9F boiler, a 5"g 'Firefly' boiler, and an LBSC 5"g 'Pansy' boiler, and numerous 3.5"g boilers including a LBSC 'Betty' and quite a few others. He wasn't quite as prolific as the late John deBank in boiler building, but he was a lot more successful!

Incidentally, for John deBank's last boiler, for a 5"g Don Young Hunslet, he got John Ellis to make it for him.

Cheers,

Julian

[delaplume]

Hello everyone,

I've been following this Springcrocus boiler discussion of late and was dismayed that yet again "Betty Pickering" seems to be on board !!...........However I suspect that underlying it all is our combined desire as Engineers to "Get it right" !!...............

And with that in mind I was genuinely sorry to hear about John's ( Simplyloco ) Boiler failure at the time ( I know he thinks I an untermensh on this Forum---LoL !! ) but it did have a positive impact in as much that it caused me to completely re-evaluate all my design work up to that point on The Bear's drawings....and I found a couple of small errors that had slipped by the proof-readings....

For those not aware I fully designed my Bear's boiler with John Ellis acting as a "Consultant" with regards to Federation requirements etc...........The build contract then awarded to John Ellis Boilers of Briery Hill, West Midlands....

My point being that it took a lot of time and effort---- talks with others----visits to York Museum library etc. etc but it was worth it in the long run...........So Steve, by all means do listen to ALL the advice so freely given here on this Forum but do remember that ultimately it'll be your Boiler Inspector who will be testing and issuing the Certificate...nuff said ??

PS}--- Just for information}--My Bear's boiler is spot-on accurate to outside dimentions and shape......Internally the shells are butt-joined with an internal, overlapping strap both for barrel-to-barrel interface AND longitudinal join......and stamped accordingly on the shell underside...

It also features a short, tubeless combustion chamber with double-thickness lower wrapper...

Thanks for the space, Steve.....any more info can be had via my Great Bear thread..

[springcrocus]

The cylinder drain cocks are made from 5/16" square brass bar and look nothing like the real-life ones. These were made on the lathe using the 4-jaw self-centering chuck and are quite straightforward items. I screwed mine into place and numbered each one to ensure they go back in the same place. Once tightened up, the side face was marked prior to drilling and reaming 5/32". The pins were made from 5/32" stainless steel using a drill jig to drill the three holes or two holes respectively. The stock bar was drilled first, then parted off to length.





The linking rods were made from 16 swg brass strips, and using the DRO to get the hole positions. I have used 3/32" diameter iron rivets which I have threaded 8BA to act as link pins and the discharge pipes are made from offcuts of 3/32" brass tube. It doesn't look much like the prototype but once it is all painted black, it probably won't show. I will leave the pipes shiny, of course.





Thanks for looking in,

Steve

[springcrocus]

Jul 4, 2019 1:36:11 GMT delaplume said:

Hello everyone,

I've been following this Springcrocus boiler discussion of late and was dismayed that yet again "Betty Pickering" seems to be on board !!...........However I suspect that underlying it all is our combined desire as Engineers to "Get it right" !!...............


......by all means do listen to ALL the advice so freely given here on this Forum ......

Quite right, Alan, and when I want or need advice, I always ask on here for guidance. The knowledge base here is quite extensive. Unasked-for advice, however, when delivered in a bombastic manner is intrusive and annoying.

Regards, Steve

[ettingtonliam]

In my ignorance I haven't seen that type of drain cock before. Very simple, but how well do they seal against steam at cylinder pressure, with no seals at all?

[springcrocus]

I can't answer that yet, Richard, but I assume that, because the drain hole is very small - 1/16" dia - feeding to a close-fitting rod in a reamed hole, the leakage will be negligible. I can always make something different if they turn out to be rubbish, however. My normal way of doing things.

Regards, Steve

[delaplume]

Hello Steve,

I have a set similar to that on a bought-in Simplex and they seem to be ok with just an occasional wisp of steam...Most full size locos have a sliding rod that presses against a spring - loaded valve spindle....So in reality I think this design looks a whole lot more realistic than those awful commercial swinging arm, taper plug types...I'm sure yours will be just fine...

My point about the advice freely given on here was that ultimately it'll be the Boiler Inspector whom you'll have to satisfy.....so do keep him/her in the loop from day 1....

I take your point re}--- "Bombastic", "unwanted" etc and fully agree with the sentiment within...The problem with the written word on any forum ( even when accompanied by emoticons, winks etc. etc.) is it's so easy to mis-read what frame-of-mind the Author was in at the moment of sending.....especially after a few of those "Soothing Ales" eh ??

OK, let's not dwell on it any more but all pull together and help you with this Brit. boiler...

Alan R

[JonL]

I do like that drain cock design, I've put off making mine until my skills have improved, but that looks like something I could attempt.

I'm ignorant as to what full size locos use, but that does now give me a pleasant twenty minutes of research ahead!

Well done Steve, looking good.

[Tony K]

Jul 4, 2019 8:23:28 GMT delaplume said:

Hello Steve,

I have a set similar to that on a bought-in Simplex and they seem to be ok with just an occasional wisp of steam...Most full size locos have a sliding rod that presses against a spring - loaded valve spindle....So in reality I think this design looks a whole lot more realistic than those awful commercial swinging arm, taper plug types...I'm sure yours will be just fine...
Yes, I get on OK with them - less vulnerable to damage.

My point about the advice freely given on here was that ultimately it'll be the Boiler Inspector whom you'll have to satisfy.....so do keep him/her in the loop from day 1....
But that was Julian's original point, although somewhat personal, before the emotion took over.
Because there are very few boilers being self-manufactured, there are fewer boiler testers who have actually built a boiler. Many of us could test copper boilers under the regulations all day long, doing it responsibly, properly and successfully on a pass/fail basis. That is if we could fill in the paperwork designed by an admin person.
If we had not made a decent size boiler, or unless we were prepared to do loads of study work (and even then it would be really difficult), we would be unable to give anyone substantial advice on their boiler during construction or how to fix a failed boiler. We would then need to refer the owner to a constructor. There are fewer constructors - or "there's a hole in my bucket dear Liza..."

I take your point re}--- "Bombastic", "unwanted" etc and fully agree with the sentiment within...The problem with the written word on any forum ( even when accompanied by emoticons, winks etc. etc.) is it's so easy to mis-read what frame-of-mind the Author was in at the moment of sending.....especially after a few of those "Soothing Ales" eh ??
Loosely translated - people do not always hear what you write in the way you had it in your head when you wrote it

OK, let's not dwell on it any more but all pull together and help you with this Brit. boiler...
Yes - very interesting - apologies for diverting from that, and to Alan but you had made most of my headings. Well done and thank you Steve - keep it coming!

[springcrocus]

Anyone would think this boiler is a community project.

It might be better if I just do one big update when it's finished, save all this hassle.

Steve

[ettingtonliam]

Whats the difference, this way we all tell you you are going to do it wrong, wait till you've finished then we tell you you've done it wrong. At least you get the satisfaction of knowing that you've built a boiler yourself, which seems to put you ahead of quite a few folks.

[springcrocus]

Jul 4, 2019 16:55:31 GMT ettingtonliam said:

Whats the difference, this way we all tell you you are going to do it wrong, wait till you've finished then we tell you you've done it wrong. At least you get the satisfaction of knowing that you've built a boiler yourself, which seems to put you ahead of quite a few folks.

So, basically, on a hiding to nothing.

Steve

[timo]

Steve,

You carry on doing what you are doing.
I for one find it really interesting even though I won't be building a Brit. Your copperwork looks brilliant, I hope I can do as well when the time comes!

Tim

[JonL]

I like forums like these because you get a huge amount of guidance, but if you followed every bit you would end up with a Horse designed by a Comittee! I read and appreciate it all, even if I discard some. I follow your build with interest as boilermaking really intimidates me. It sounds like this boiler will be very well thought out.

[steamer5]

Hey Nobby,
A horse built by a committee is a ...... Camel!


Ducks for cover......


Cheers Kerrin