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Post by Cro on Apr 10, 2020 6:43:29 GMT
I’m with Julian on that, our black 5 doesn’t have an ash pan at all and never set a sleeper on fire. For Julians reference is Nobbys Black 5, same with his King Arthur as well.
Lovely work Steve, be in steam in no time!
Adam
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Post by Jock McFarlane on Apr 10, 2020 8:02:27 GMT
I’m with Julian on that, our black 5 doesn’t have an ash pan at all and never set a sleeper on fire. For Julians reference is Nobbys Black 5, same with his King Arthur as well. Lovely work Steve, be in steam in no time! Adam If there is no ashpan on your black 5 does that mean there is no restriction on airflow at all ? How does that affect steaming ? Regards JM |
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Post by springcrocus on Apr 10, 2020 10:22:40 GMT
I’m with Julian on that, our black 5 doesn’t have an ash pan at all and never set a sleeper on fire. For Julians reference is Nobbys Black 5, same with his King Arthur as well. Lovely work Steve, be in steam in no time! Adam Well, that makes it easy then. I won't drill the holes in the ashpan, I will just leave the bottom doors off altogether! 
Regards, Steve
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Post by Cro on Apr 10, 2020 11:07:45 GMT
Nothing at all, streams perfectly fine.
The chap who built it built 4 engines in the same way, the Black 5, S15, King Arthur and a Hall all built to 1 1/8” scale so over scale just to pull passengers basically. They are all setup to run and pull big loads.
On average the black 5 used to do around 200 miles a year round the club so they certainly work doing what they were made for.
Adan
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Post by Cro on Apr 10, 2020 11:08:48 GMT
I’m with Julian on that, our black 5 doesn’t have an ash pan at all and never set a sleeper on fire. For Julians reference is Nobbys Black 5, same with his King Arthur as well. Lovely work Steve, be in steam in no time! Adam Well, that makes it easy then. I won't drill the holes in the ashpan, I will just leave the bottom doors off altogether!
Regards, Steve
I will agree with Julian, racking the fire will chuck embers our but as he rightly said, shouldn’t need too much if at all. Adam |
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,919
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Post by jma1009 on Apr 10, 2020 19:47:31 GMT
Hi JM,
I don't think myself that you should restrict air flow to the grate in our sizes, and there should be ample availability of air to get to underneath the grate. The restriction is provided by the grate design and depth of fire and stack design of the tubes and smokebox draughting etc. Good firing technique also helps!
There is a phenomena of wooden sleepers catching fire or smouldering with smoke in fullsize in hot weather; this used to occur at the very long Pontypridd Station for some unexplained reason in hot summer weather if we did not have rain for awhile (quite a rare occasion in South Wales!), and we would have to phone up the signaller to report any such events.
(Apologies Steve, for the above thread drift).
Cheers,
Julian
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Post by coniston on Apr 10, 2020 21:04:36 GMT
If it is of any help, a friend of mine running a Brit for many years does so without the ash doors on, only on the odd occasion has hot embers dropping been a cause of minor fires, but that is dry grass and not the sleepers. I'm with Julian and others, don't rake the fire unless really necessary to remove clinker, then it is probably better taking it off track for a short time to sort the fire out before going back on. Great work on the check valves Steve, following your progress with interest.
Chris D
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Post by springcrocus on Apr 11, 2020 15:38:50 GMT
Having never fired or driven a loco, I wouldn't know how to even light the fire, let alone maintain it! Maybe one day... The lower clacks are made from two parts silver-soldered together. The body was turned from 1/2" dia brass, drilled 9/32" with a flat-bottomed drill, finished through with a 3/16" drill and then tapped 5/16" x 40 tpi for a plug and then parted off to length. The opposite end was turned to size and threaded 3/8" x 32 with a button die. A cross-hole and spotface were formed in the side.  The branch was made with 3/8" dia material threaded 3/8" x 24 tpi most of the way, a spigot formed on the back and then parted to length. This is similar to the top feeds. When I soldered the top feeds together, I had one instance of solder getting where it wasn't wanted and had to clean up. This time I painted the insides of each clack body with correction fluid.  A ring of solder was placed around the branch and the assembly heated. A groove in the block helped keep it all upright.  I only need two but made a couple of spares in case of sealing problems later. I intend to use 1/4" dia silicon nitride balls in these.  Following a chance remark by Mr Delaplume, I also made some thin locknuts instead of having the shoulders shown on the drawing. Much easier to get them in line this way. Thanks, Alan. Top plugs for each were also made, same as for the top feeds. Here they are, cleaned up and ready to go.  Steve |
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Post by Cro on Apr 11, 2020 17:54:18 GMT
I know we mentioned the whole brass bronze thing before and the feeling was, not your problem, but these are honestly the one thing I would insist you consider remaking in bronze because I’ve been stung first hand by my own grandad on this one!
Grandad put brass clacks on the Single on the backhead and one went snappy snappy. The loco isn’t that old and at the time had only been run 10-15 times at most.
No harder to do and much better in the long run (your problem or the next).
They look great though!
Adam
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Post by springcrocus on Apr 11, 2020 18:20:42 GMT
I know we mentioned the whole brass bronze thing before and the feeling was, not your problem, but these are honestly the one thing I would insist you consider remaking in bronze because I’ve been stung first hand by my own grandad on this one! Grandad put brass clacks on the Single on the backhead and one went snappy snappy. The loco isn’t that old and at the time had only been run 10-15 times at most. No harder to do and much better in the long run (your problem or the next). They look great though! Adam OK, bronze it is, then. However, if the whole of the backhead fittings need to be bronze, they will have to wait until I can get some. 
Regards, Steve
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Post by Cro on Apr 11, 2020 20:29:32 GMT
I’d say they would be better off this way yes, especially for items like low backhead clacks that are sat in the water space.
In theory on a Brit all that is on the backhead is the water gauges and in miniature these clacks so not much to make!
Adam
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Post by springcrocus on Apr 11, 2020 21:24:03 GMT
Trouble is, I've just wasted a couple of days. The water gauge fitting can go in the bin , too. I think I will get on with the Allchin instead.
Regards, Steve
Edit: Adam is probably correct, it would have been better to use bronze. No grumbles there. However, I have very limited amounts of the stuff, so will have to wait till funds allow. I think this project needs a break for a while.
Steve
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,919
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Post by jma1009 on Apr 11, 2020 23:10:37 GMT
Hi Steve,
I've used brass myself on fittings throughout for quite a few locos...
I'd previously had to make new fittings for club locos where dezincification had occurred below the water line.
I took the view that sacrificial brass fittings below the water line were easily replaced, as I make all my own stuff, and especially as I have used sifbronze on lots of boiler joints.
The blowdown valves are susceptible to this if of brass, but you ought to get 10 plus years use out of them.
I suppose it does depend on the quality of brass used; most of my stuff is high quality spec acquired over 20 years ago. It also depends on whether you over heat the brass during the silver soldering.
I replaced a blowdown valve of brass that had been perfectly OK for 30 years on one boiler - till I removed it! I replaced it with a new one of brass. I can give you countless examples of brass fittings lasting 30 years below the water line.
Cheers,
Julian
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Post by Cro on Apr 12, 2020 5:52:52 GMT
Sorry to cause you a headache Steve, not my intention at all just trying to help avoid pain later in life. Julian makes a fair point that these things can be easily removed but my own view is if it can be avoided now why not. If you have already made the water gauges too then maybe just stick with what you have and as and when (if) you feel the need to change it later you can.
Please don’t stop the updates we are all enjoying them!
Adam
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Post by springcrocus on Apr 12, 2020 7:18:04 GMT
I understand the reasoning for using bronze, Adam. If a fitting blows somewhere on the loco, a large escape of steam happens and everyone jumps back. If it happens on the backhead, the driver gets a faceful of steam because the cab acts like a giant nozzle. It's just that my enthusiam is a little low at present.
Regards, Steve
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oldnorton
Statesman
5" gauge LMS enthusiast
Posts: 721
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Post by oldnorton on Apr 12, 2020 10:20:20 GMT
Steve
I agree with Adam and Julian. The brass items will lose their zinc and become porous but you are talking of a 10 year time frame and really for the items that are in liquid water for a long time. I don't fully understand whether there is a proven loss of zinc with exposure to steam, it seems less likely and I suspect that in industry there is just a blanket no brass rule for consistency sake. That is why I was not concerned about the brass regulator. We all have brass whistles and steam brake valves, etc.
The principle therefore is to use bronze for fittings affixed to the boiler and taking pressure, and try to get PB102 and not the leaded bronzes such as colphos or SAE660 - these should not be silver soldered as there is a risk of embrittlement. But for now use those brass clacks for a year or two and make the bronze ones later. You will probably have trouble with the first ones anyway and want to remake them!
Norm
p.s. m-machine are supplying at the moment and carry good stocks of PB106. Some other suppliers talk about 'phosphor bronze' and don't know what they are selling.
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,919
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Post by jma1009 on Apr 12, 2020 20:26:50 GMT
Another point, Steve, is that in hard water areas, it is good practice to remove fittings below the water line periodically to check for build up of scale deposits. So any signs of dezincification can be checked as well, if they are of brass. (Locos should always have their boilers blown down after a steam up).
I would also remove the LBSC type spearhead copper superheater elements to inspect them (if that type is fitted), if they have not already failed after say 10 years. A new grate may be required, and various other jobs such as repacking glands and pistons, and checking the axleboxes and renewing bearing bushes etc.
Miniature steam locomotives will wear and require attention to keep them in tip top condition rather than being run into the ground and then becoming completely knackered!
Keep safe and stay well! And Happy Easter!
Cheers,
Julian
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Post by springcrocus on Apr 13, 2020 7:38:24 GMT
Thanks for the encouragement, Gentlemen. Wilf has very kindly offered me a piece from a bronze prop shaft and passes my door to go shopping. When that arrives I will remake the offending articles, assuming it solders OK. That is essential to fix the ninety degree branch on the fittings.
Playing with the cab and footplate/running boards at present.
Regards, Steve
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Post by springcrocus on Apr 16, 2020 17:21:08 GMT
I've cut the middle sections of the footplates from galvanised steel sheet recovered from a local fabricators skip. Folding the valances neatly was a challenge, having only flat steel bars to act as vice-jaw extensions. Drilling all the holes on the milling machine was straightforward, as was forming the cutout for the oil pumps. The final job was to mill the valances to 11/16" and have a straight, true edge. Top clamps were moved as and when needed, then replaced behind the cutter.  Some of the dimensions need to be taken with a pinch of salt and I had to remake the oil pump platform as it was 5/16" too short to allow the priming handle to protrude.  Fixing holes were marked out by eye, then spotted through to the support brackets, drilled and tapped. I'm using 8BA c/sunk steel screws for this. The inside edge is just scaled from the drawing at present but will be trimmed back to suit the boiler cleading when I get to that job.   These will go in the pickle tank for a couple of hours to get the zinc off, then be rinsed and primed. Steve |
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Post by 92220 on Apr 16, 2020 18:07:52 GMT
Hi Steve.
Lovely job!! I'm pleased to see you will be removing the zinc coating. While zinc plating is good at preventing rust, it also prevents paint from adhering well. Even etch primer doesn't help much. There are etch primers made specifically for use on galvanised steel, but even they don't adhere as well as on plain steel or brass. The only way to guarantee paint sticks to galvanised is to actually 'weather' it outside for 24 months. Not really a suitable idea for model engineering projects!!
Bob.
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