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Juliet
Dec 1, 2021 12:31:12 GMT
Post by philh1aa on Dec 1, 2021 12:31:12 GMT
Pete, what did you use to heat the brass parts up with? A soldering iron or a small torch? Is that Bakers fluid I can see in your picture and what temperature/ alloy of solder did you use? Are the parts distortion free after the soldering?
I hope you don't mind all the questions. I have the similar laser cut kits for my Rob Roy tanks and cab and I have been putting off soldering them because I have never done any plate soldering before and I don't want to ruin the parts.
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smallbrother
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Juliet
Dec 1, 2021 15:41:32 GMT
Post by smallbrother on Dec 1, 2021 15:41:32 GMT
Pete, what did you use to heat the brass parts up with? A soldering iron or a small torch? Is that Bakers fluid I can see in your picture and what temperature/ alloy of solder did you use? Are the parts distortion free after the soldering? I hope you don't mind all the questions. I have the similar laser cut kits for my Rob Roy tanks and cab and I have been putting off soldering them because I have never done any plate soldering before and I don't want to ruin the parts. Hi Phil, Yes I used Bakers Fluid and a torch. The solder is a roll I found in a cupboard - it's not got a label but it must be as soft as it comes I suppose. I cleaned the parts with some spray-on degreaser from a car accessory shop and a paper towel. The tabs all need a little bit of gentle filing to get them to engage properly. Doesn't need much heating and there was no distortion. It's all new to me as well. I've just done another joint so will soon have to tackle some joints that are inside a very narrow box. I don't know whether to try and poke the solder down inside or apply it to the outside. Hoping to get to that stage on Friday so will post the results on here. I don't mind the questions at all. I ask enough myself and luckily there are plenty of helpful people on here if you get stuck. Pete.
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uuu
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Juliet
Dec 1, 2021 16:06:33 GMT
Post by uuu on Dec 1, 2021 16:06:33 GMT
...Wondering how to hold the pieces together while I heat them up. They are very small and light and though they are tabbed the slightest touch and they move about... Pete. When I soldered Jessie's ash pan, I found that centre-popping the tabs after assembly, swelled them enough so they didn't drop back through the slots. Wilf
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smallbrother
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Juliet
Dec 1, 2021 17:11:15 GMT
Post by smallbrother on Dec 1, 2021 17:11:15 GMT
...Wondering how to hold the pieces together while I heat them up. They are very small and light and though they are tabbed the slightest touch and they move about... Pete. When I soldered Jessie's ash pan, I found that centre-popping the tabs after assembly, swelled them enough so they didn't drop back through the slots. Wilf Hi Wilf, These are very thin. Will see if it's feasible though. Pete.
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Gary L
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Juliet
Dec 1, 2021 17:16:04 GMT
Post by Gary L on Dec 1, 2021 17:16:04 GMT
Pete, what did you use to heat the brass parts up with? A soldering iron or a small torch? Is that Bakers fluid I can see in your picture and what temperature/ alloy of solder did you use? Are the parts distortion free after the soldering? I hope you don't mind all the questions. I have the similar laser cut kits for my Rob Roy tanks and cab and I have been putting off soldering them because I have never done any plate soldering before and I don't want to ruin the parts. Hi Phil, [Snip]. I cleaned the parts with some spray-on degreaser from a car accessory shop and a paper towel. Hi Pete (and Phil) I don’t think you need to worry about grease too much when soft-soldering, as long as it is not excessive. The heat and flux seem to dissipate it for me. More important to clean off is the oxide layer. Brass is prone to tarnish, but if your parts were laser-cut fairly recently they should be fine with any flux. If a bit older, say a year or two, then Bakers Fluid will probably be enough to deal with it. Old brass with visible tarnish will definitely need a rub with emery to get down to shiny metal first. In other words, mechanical cleanliness is more important than merely being chemically clean. If your solder runs nicely and wets the metal and runs into the joints you will know it is OK. If it ‘blobs’ and won’t flatten out when it melts, the metal needs cleaning. That’s what I find, anyway. (A different cause of blobbing is when the solder gets to melting temperature before the metal you are joining, so always heat the metal where possible, rather than the solder.) I am facing a similar issue with my Paddington tanks. They are much bigger and heavier than anything I have soft-soldered before. The method of construction means that cold jointing methods (epoxy, or polyurethane) will not really be suitable. Like Phil, I am a bit chary about distortion, because it will be quite difficult to ensure even heating. So I will be looking for advice myself! Watching your adventure with interest… Gary
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Juliet
Dec 1, 2021 17:17:28 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2021 17:17:28 GMT
[/quote]
It's all new to me as well. I've just done another joint so will soon have to tackle some joints that are inside a very narrow box. I don't know whether to try and poke the solder down inside or apply it to the outside.
Hi Pete
Difficult to answer not seeing the job to hand but if I'm reading your description correctly I would apply the heat from the outside. Tin the parts first, assemble them using something to keep them together, brush some baker's fluid along the joint (inside), and heat gently along the outside of the joint. With tinning, the parts may move as heated so try to use a clamp that will close up when this happens. If the parts are small something like a wooden clothes peg can be very handy.
Good luck
Pete
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smallbrother
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Juliet
Dec 1, 2021 22:53:45 GMT
Post by smallbrother on Dec 1, 2021 22:53:45 GMT
It's all new to me as well. I've just done another joint so will soon have to tackle some joints that are inside a very narrow box. I don't know whether to try and poke the solder down inside or apply it to the outside. Hi Pete Difficult to answer not seeing the job to hand but if I'm reading your description correctly I would apply the heat from the outside. Tin the parts first, assemble them using something to keep them together, brush some baker's fluid along the joint (inside), and heat gently along the outside of the joint. With tinning, the parts may move as heated so try to use a clamp that will close up when this happens. If the parts are small something like a wooden clothes peg can be very handy. Good luck Pete [/quote] Hi Pete, How do you tin the parts? Pete.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2021 23:44:30 GMT
Hi Pete
Tinning is just putting a thin layer of solder on each part where it will mate with the part to be joined(tinning). Do this to both parts ( for some smaller jobs you only need to tin the smaller part). Brush baker's fluid along the part where it is to join the next, for these laser cut parts this will be where the slots and tabs are. Run the iron or torch quickly over this while adding a little solder, it doesn't need much. If applying with an iron, run it along the join area and straight off the part to temove the access blob which can form.
The goal is to get an even thin layer of solder where it is to be joined to the next part. You may need to file the slots and tabs a little so that they still fit.
Once tinned the job is much easier, put parts together, brush baker's fluid on and gently heat working along the complete joint, the bakers will help the solder melt and give a nice even fillet, you can add more solder if required.
It's a lot easier and quicker to do than it may sound.
Cheers
Pete
PS. ensure the parts are very clean and the solder should flow nicely.
Pete
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smallbrother
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Post by smallbrother on Dec 2, 2021 13:04:29 GMT
Here is a warts and all photo of the right hand tank so far. Blobs of solder to remove and a small gap in one joint. The tabbed base fits quite nicely but I will need to gently clamp the long sides in place to keep it all in shape. Pete.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2021 14:57:38 GMT
Hi Pete
Did you Tin those first, they don't look like it? the solder hasn't flowed as it should. Now that I can see the job to hand I would suggest holding the part so that the joint is at the bottom, ie clock it 90 degrees to the right so that it sits upright with the outside of the joint at the bottom. Support it higher so that you can get a torch under it and tilt it forward a little so that gravity will help the solder to fill the joint from inside forming a fillet, you can lay a strip of solder along the joint on the inside to be sure as this needs to be watertight. The previous joint to the back looks much better, it's a good idea to block the heat from previous joints when doing new, when using an iron you can usually get away with a couple of crocodile clips or small clamps to act as heatsinks, when using a torch in close proximity it's best to block the flame too.
keep up the good work, you'll find that each stage will get easier as you gain experience in how long to keep the heat in play, it looks to me that you may have removed the flame a little too soon as I can't see any signs of it flashing and flattening out.
Regards
Pete
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smallbrother
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Juliet
Dec 2, 2021 15:28:00 GMT
Post by smallbrother on Dec 2, 2021 15:28:00 GMT
No Pete, this was before you mentioned tinning.
I just attached the base using the same method. The flow was not perfect and there are some small gaps. It is however structurally sound. I can paint/mastic it to make it watertight.
Yes this is my first go at soldering of any description so I can try different things and hopefully improve! It all happened surprisingly fast and caught me unprepared to be quite frank, the torching and soldering not the best coordinated of operations.
Pete.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2021 16:27:29 GMT
No Pete, this was before you mentioned tinning. I just attached the base using the same method. The flow was not perfect and there are some small gaps. It is however structurally sound. I can paint/mastic it to make it watertight. Yes this is my first go at soldering of any description so I can try different things and hopefully improve! It all happened surprisingly fast and caught me unprepared to be quite frank, the torching and soldering not the best coordinated of operations. Pete. you've done well for the first time, especially without tinning, you'll find the job easier once tinned... practice makes perfect, this goes for all of us although I can't say that I've perfected anything yet, always learning... Pete
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Post by GWR 101 on Dec 2, 2021 17:21:17 GMT
Pete, nice to see you are making some good progress, I realise its a bit late but I cheated with my tanks. I riveted them together and used the solder as a filler as suggested on here. modeleng.proboards.com/thread/9256/help-tanks Regards Paul
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smallbrother
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Post by smallbrother on Dec 2, 2021 17:28:00 GMT
Pete, nice to see you are making some good progress, I realise its a bit late but I cheated with my tanks. I riveted them together and used the solder as a filler as suggested on here. modeleng.proboards.com/thread/9256/help-tanks Regards Paul Paul - I can't imagine me getting much of a finish with riveting. A bit of mastic will seal this tank and maybe for the second one I'll be better placed to keep control of things and try out some different methods. Really enjoyed this element of the build. Pete.
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Post by coniston on Dec 2, 2021 23:22:11 GMT
Hi Pete, firstly I must say that you're doing a grand job especially as your first attempt. One thing you can do before using mastic is to go over the joints carefully with a gentle flame from your torch and as the solder starts to melt use a small paint brush laden with Bakers Fluid on the solder to 'paint' it along the joint, keep dipping the brush in Bakers Fluid which as an acid flux will clean the joint as you go helping the solder to flow and create a nice fillet. The real knack to this is control of the flame by moving the torch closer or further away to keep the solder just a melting point. With a bit of practice you'll soon be able to coax the solder exactly where you want it to go. You can do this in stages to help prevent the whole joint from undoing and to give your concentration a bit of a break.
Keep at it, this is real progress.
Chris
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Post by Cro on Dec 3, 2021 8:42:42 GMT
I can echo what Chris has said, I used this on the City tender and it works well. To help the joint above stay cool lay it on the thickest block of steel you have with the area you want to work on hanging off the edge, even better put a piece inside in the same way as this will act as a big heat sink and help avoid any "Oh S&*T" situations.
I used the same torch for soft soldering as I do silver solder and its a case of having the flame down low and just gently gently cathee monkey! With soldering the tanks you should have no need to use any sealant or otherwise and you'll have a tank for life when done.
Keep up the good work - if in doubt, stop, take photos and post for help.
Adam
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smallbrother
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Juliet
Dec 3, 2021 10:00:39 GMT
Cro likes this
Post by smallbrother on Dec 3, 2021 10:00:39 GMT
Yes I was having a good think about the process last evening and I concluded my control of the torch was all over the place.
Some areas went well, others much less so, and the only possible difference was the amount of heat.
As I said above, I was surprised how quickly things started to flow, and was not at all prepared how to handle the flowing solder.
I will see if I can coax the solder to move along the joints where required.
Thank you all for the tips and encouragement!
Pete.
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smallbrother
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Post by smallbrother on Dec 3, 2021 15:57:16 GMT
After some more heat, fluid, solder it now holds water. Pete.
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Juliet
Dec 3, 2021 16:15:57 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2021 16:15:57 GMT
Excellent..
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Juliet
Dec 3, 2021 16:43:53 GMT
Post by philh1aa on Dec 3, 2021 16:43:53 GMT
Pete,
This might make everything more complicated but you could consider it.
A chap from the ME site described a method where you place the whole assembly covered in aluminium foil in the domestic oven with all the joints cleaned of course and coated with soft solder paint. You let it soak a while at say 100 degrees, bring it out, peel back the foil and run a soldering iron along the joint. Once done, return the assembly back to the oven before it cools down too much to help prevent distortion.
I might try a similar method but using coiled solder. Oh and when my wife is out of course.
Phil H
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