Winson 9F Kit- Part Built- Restoration/ Build

[shaggydog]

Hello All!!

Firstly just wanted to say hello I'm new here but have been involved with steam engines and engineering for a while so not coming in from a complete novice point of view.

I have just received a Winson 9F kit which I am assured is complete bar some minor gaskets- Unfortunately the builders diary/works manual didn't come down with the Locomotive so I have no paperwork until it arrives.

What I have is a tender pretty much complete in some horrendous undercoat paint - easily fixed
Boiler with fittings (but will replace the fittings with some from Steam fittings unless anyone has any recommendations?)
Chassis assembled but with incredibly stiff piston valves.
Boxes full of little bits and pieces I'm going to leave well alone until the parts manual arrives.

My goal is to get the engine running so that I may upgrade Winson parts with Hewsons parts slowly as time and finances are available.

Firstly, The loco is very resistant to turning over. I have traced this to the Piston valves which are incredibly stiff.
I want to withdraw the Piston Valves so I can see what is causing them to be so stiff but also to see if they have been converted to PTFE as I understand this cures 90% of the steam blow by problems?
Problem is I can't see how to remove the Valve Spindle Crosshead Pin. Can anyone advise so that I can withdraw the piston valves and inspect them?

Once they are freed off I want to see if I can get it to run on air and just give it a general check over.

Other issues I have found are as follows;
Front brake crossbeam Broken 1 Brake block off (thread sheared off)
Rear brake pull rod bent (can Straighten)
Smokebox top door hinge broken (drill out and remake)
Various parts a bit rusty (wire wool and patience)

Before I get too involved in the strip down to repaint (its not been blessed with a good job) is there anything I must check for or inspect?

I know these models were plagued with issues and I'm aware of the Britannia builder website which has been a great source for information.

As always, any knowledge shared is gratefully received!

[Bluff Chuffer]

Hi there,
I have Winson 9F No. 030 and it works well now.
The valve crosshead pin is loctited into the crosshead, but hopefully not the eye of the combination lever wherein the pin functions.
Most of my 9F is loctited together, rare to find a push fit! (No 638 I used)

To release needs heat, carefully applied and then tap it out if its loose. I did make a thin headed pin to prevent it coming loose as it once did on one cylinder.

Am willing to answer any questions as well as point you in the direction of where to find answers.
Good Luck,
Errol

[shaggydog]

Hello Errol!

Thank you for the speedy response.

I hadn't realised they were loctited in though it makes sense!

I may have to wait until the manual arrives so I can have a good crawl through to see how it all goes together as there are some eccentricities!

As a quick run through, what problems or errors did you find and need to correct in order to make your 9F a good runner?

Have you replaced any of the boiler fittings? If so which ones did you go for?

Thank you for your kind offer I will let you know as I find them!

Is your 9f this one by any chance?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6a79qro8I0

[Bluff Chuffer]

Hi,
Yip, thats No. 030. Way before I got it on the track.
Search for stoomraider on youtube for a later video and on the Durban track.

My 9F had been assembled when I bought it from the original owner, so I stripped it down so only the assembled frame was intact.
We put a 5mm front buffer beam on it and also soldered up the loctited buffers - so they could not break apart if one needed to lift the loco.

I reset the wheels on the axles - clocked for truth, the quartering seemed ok. The flange depth on the flanged wheels was increase to the correct depthe for 5" gauge 5/32 or 3/16".
The axlebox springing was changed. I used 2x 0.8mm thick top springs, with elongated end holes that would allow the spring to deflect as otherwise the springing was locked solid - no movement allowed in the kit product.

The boiler fitting were loctited together as you will see in the instructions. The gauge glass fittings were replaced with our own make, plus any others that we felt were needed.

The axle pump needed considerable modification, bore reduction, larger plumbing ports, also I arranged the valve box in a vertical plane rather than the as supplied horizontal one. It's powerful even now but is easy to manage and since the loco is way across the tender, nice to sit back with a throttle extension and not a care in the world when its set correctly!

You have a full time project on your hands for a while, but both my son and I feel it was a worthwhile exercise.
There are many more problems you will have to overcome- I do not understand how Winson's could think that all the steam that you would need to work a 5" gauge loco could get through a 3mm hole in the collector for the regulator.

I won't bore you with all the details now and look forward to your exclamations and comments when you get to grips with the 'Beast'.
Bye,
Errol

[shaggydog]

Hi Errol,

Thank you for the search! Looks even better on the rails.

Mine is assembled but mercifully the platework on the locomotive is still in its original packets. The Locomotive has got a rubbish paint job so I want to strip it down so I can paint it properly.

The buffer beam is a good shout as the original one has bent already and the buffers are loose so that will be dealt with quickly.

Interesting about the springs, I hadn't looked that far but since you mentioned it they are locked solid.

The axlepump is a bit of a surprise, something so simple needing such modification is a bit of a worry. That said mine seems to me at a 45' angle so it may have already been looked at.

Ok I think first thing to do is to wait for the book to turn up and to go through it thoroughly. Then get it running smoothly and then strip it down to repaint and then slowly put everything back together making sure it all works.

[Cro]

Welcome to the forum and good luck with the rebuild!

I have a Winson 9f I got from a friend in the club. He rebuild the chassis from the ground up replacing all the stretchers for the correct cast ones, adding the doubler plates in places and re-profiling the wheels as mentioned above. We did away with the axle pump as it's far to big but on an engine like this its just not needs - two good injectors will do fine.

The Turnol/steel leaf springs are useless and it now has dummy cast springs with coil springs up the middle of them, one thing to watch out is that if the spring on the back two axles is too soft then the chassis will drop too much and the boiler can start to rub on the flanges of the 4th axle. This happened to someone I know but he only found out when it was too late!

Cylinders need some work, the liners supplier are next to useless as they are such a loose fit in the bore they expected loctite to hold and seal them but this doesn't work. New liners are the best option and new valves, I went for solid bronze bobbins and they seem ok at the moment but I may change this. The valve gear in general is pretty ropey but we remade all of mine to the Warnett drawings using the correct motion brackets and all and it run nicely.

The regulator can go in the bin and all of its fittings, as Errol says how you expect a 9f to work on a 3mm bore delivery to the regulator is crazy. The platework is hideously wrong and that is what I am currently working on at the moment along with replacing all my Hewson fittings now with my own.

The tender isn't bad for what it is but the coal space is too short by about 1.5"-2" so I stretched mine out and remade the front plate with added detail.

I'd upload some photos but I had the same issue as others with Photo Bucket and can't be bothered to sort it out for now but happy to email some over if you contact me directly.

Hope that gives you an idea of where to start.

Adam

[Bluff Chuffer]

I have a few copies of the privately produced magazine entitled 'Fast Track' that detailed the construction, hints and tips from Winson owners that I can scan the pertinent topics for the 9F.

Maybe I can produce the whole issue if Winson owners feel would be worthwhile. I do not know what the fate of the mag was and who may own copyright, but we can wait and see. With a new Eastern GWR 14xx class available today, maybe the old Fast Track's might be of use.

Errol

[shaggydog]

Hello Adam!

I may keep the axle pump and just not use it, that way if I do suddenly need a quick top up I can get one in a hurry!

I am hoping to receive the builders notes in the next few days after which I can start pouring through it and finding firstly what stage we are at, secondly why the valves are so very tight and then start planning on moving forward.

I have been in contact with Lynx Modelworks who have given a reasonable quotation for getting the chassis into a good usable condition which is very tempting. That said it is much more satisfying to strip it down and do the work yourself.

Shame about the plate work I didn't think it looked too bad? I'm really quite pleased with the tender, other than the horrendous paint job which needs stripping and some filling here and there id say its one of the nicest bits of the locomotive currently.

If you have any Hewsons bits your throwing away ping me a message and I may well buy it off you!


Hello Errol,

That would be fantastic if you could! Any hints and tips would be gratefully received plus for the wider knowledge pool, I'm sure mine isn't the only one which didn't progress to completion!

[Cro]

I would strongly advise steering clear of Lynx if you can, experience from various club members would suggest it will come back worse than when it left you.

I think I have the whole folder from when I got mine, not that I have ever looked at it, but if you can't get yours you are welcome to this one but I don't know if it is all there or what order it is in.

The plate work is terrible if you want to get it looking just right but if you are not to fussed then its useable. I have a huge box of bits that I am throwing away as it is all junk.

I can't comment to much on the Hewson bits but for whats there not much of it will avoid the bin either.

Adam

[shaggydog]

Hi Adam,

Interesting I had heard good things and have previously used them for some bits on a Rob Roy to great success. That said I have read mixed reviews.

The folder has now arrived and revealed some interesting comments...

The kit was bought once, built up to kit 10 and the returned to Winsons who commented on its horrendous paintjob and bent buffer beam.

The kit was then sold onto the gentleman who owned it last (other than the company I bought it off who did nothing more than handle the sale)

While at Winsons it was muted the suggestion of them fitting the valve gear mods and air testing it before dispatching.

Now, I have no idea if this was done or not but as my chassis has all the motion fitted. I still need to withdraw the piston valves to see why they are so sticky/tight.

I read somewhere that Engineers Emporium had bought all the stuff to do with Modelworks/Winson. Was this just drawings and associated parts or was it correspondence as well?

If so I may be able to replace some of the broken parts immediately rather than having to machine them from scratch.

[Cro]

I think you may have been very lucky to get anything out of Lynx that worked but anyway my advice would be steer clear.

Sounds like the loco has been around a bit but I doubt Winson did anything useful with it.

I had heard that EE had taken on some of the design rights to the kits but I do not know to what extent.

You would be best just forgetting trying to get winson bits and just start from the bottom up and by that I mean strip it right back to the frames and build it up again checking each part as you go.

All of my valvegear, stretchers, motion brackets, crosshead bar brackets and fittings are in the bin and that's where they will stay. It may sound ruthless and harsh but its true, if I knew then what I know now I wouldn't have touched it.

Adam

[shaggydog]

Looks likely doesn't it!

I need to find some good paint stripper so I can get rid of the horrendous job which is currently spooned onto it.

Then slowly start taking parts off and inspecting and moving from there.

I know what I'm doing this evening!

Will try and find a place to put some photos up as build diary's without photos are very dull!

Can also put up some photos of my Terrier too!

[Cro]

Best of luck with it, if you have any question feel free to drop me a message and I'll do my best to reply,

I have just set up Flickr so I can post photos again so I will try get one when the cladding goes back onto the boiler soon.

I'd still consider losing that axle pump

[shaggydog]

Bit of an update to this!

I removed the piston valves which really needed far more of a tug than really anticipated to find that they are completely standard.
I am going to approach a local machinist to see if he can machine me up some new PTFE piston rings copying Doug Hewsons ones as detailed in "Britannia Builder" as they seem to have done the trick admirably.
I would do it myself but sadly I have no access to any machine shop facilities so whilst I am more than capable of doing it I lack opportunity

It still doesn't turn over very smoothly so I'm going to remove the pistons as well and see what's happening inside there and then see if I can get it to turn over smoothly. If not it suggest its a deeper issue in which case its more of a problem!

I have however managed to draw up the front buffer beam so that I can Water Jet Cut it out of some 5mm mild steel to beef it up a bit. The buffers will also be removed tonight so that I can solder them together rather than rely on lock tight (which has already failed!)

Still no progress with photos I'm afraid but hoping to set up a Flikr account tonight and start my Terrier Build Diary and some photos of the 9F too!

[Bluff Chuffer]

I have scanned the Fast Track articles to a pdf.
Send me a pm with your email details and I will email them to you and any one else who might want them.
Regards

[shaggydog]

Thank you very much!

Pm sent

[shaggydog]

Thinking laterally, the existing chimney on the 9f looks horrendous.

This gives me 3 options.

1, Live with it which is by far the cheapest option.

2, Buy the Doug Hewsons upgraded double chimney and upgraded double blast pipe which in itself isn't cheep (£550 from memory?)

3, Put a Britannia Single chimney on it and have a more unusual prototype model?

Owing to the fact most of the 9f models I have found are ether modelled on Black Prince or Evening Star I thought it would make a much more interesting model to go the other direction and make an early prototype version. Not to knock anyone who has built there's as ether the Prince or Star but as model engineering takes on all types I thought it would be nice to try something different.

Does anybody have a Britannia Single Chimney they would be willing to Send/ Sell me?

Boiler should be having its test to get an up to date certificate today so that will help move things along. I keep meaning to upload some photos but I only get a hour in the evening to do odd jobs so I'm struggling to get them online.

[Cro]

The chimney should only be around £350.00 as both myself and Simon sell it as we went joint effort on this and I designed a new one for them to CNC machine earlier in the year based on the Warnett blast pipe dimensions with a scale "chimney cap"

Adam

[shaggydog]

Hi Adam,

It does make for a wonderful job. I have seen one in the flesh before fitting and the quality and craftsmanship is second to none.

However, the chimney and double blast pipe and blower nozzles comes to £545.88 in the current price catalogue. It would be pointless to get just one part and upgrade the other later so the plan is to stick a single chimney on it ad then upgrade those parts at a later date.

One day yes it would be nice to get that sorted but for now I'd rather put £545 into the chassis to get it running properly rather than on getting the chimney to look correct.

Plus the single chimney idea is quite exciting as a prototype!

[Cro]

Although my range has nothing to do with the Hewson range we did work on a new version of this together and the catalogue just hasn't been updated, the fully cnc machined chimney and petticoat comes to £350.00.

But yes best get the chassis running first, a lot of time needs to be spent there.

Adam