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Post by terrier060 on May 22, 2020 15:51:20 GMT
I tend to agree with you Jim. My images show no enlargement of the ends. I am sure I have got a drawing somewhere, but it could be from Boxhill, Fenchurch, Knowle or Stepney as I look copious measurements of all of them. Problem is, especially the cab or other thin steel sheet areas, much of the original has been patched or replaced as rust took hold. This is particularly prevelant around the smokebox, where the rivet detail has altered several times on Fenchurch as parts had to be replaced. Some pictures show flush rivets, others round-head.
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on May 22, 2020 16:56:41 GMT
I tend to agree with you Jim. My images show no enlargement of the ends. I am sure I have got a drawing somewhere, but it could be from Boxhill, Fenchurch, Knowle or Stepney as I look copious measurements of all of them. Problem is, especially the cab or other thin steel sheet areas, much of the original has been patched or replaced as rust took hold. This is particularly prevelant around the smokebox, where the rivet detail has altered several times on Fenchurch as parts had to be replaced. Some pictures show flush rivets, others round-head. It is always a good principle when in doubt, to try and work out how an item would be manufactured in full size. I don’t think welding was an option back then, but if this beading was flat steel bar, it could be blacksmithed to thicken and bend the end quite easily. But this would be rather more tricky to do on the end of a T-section perhaps? For which read costly. However this is Stroudley we are talking about, and we don’t get the impression he was overly concerned about cost where appearance was concerned, so maybe they did just that? On the other hand, in preservation, both the money and the skill would be at a premium, and it would be entirely understandable if they took a simplified approach to remanufacturing cab details that are not very noticeable. And in the photos, the handrail bracketry does look very new, certainly not 100+ years old. NB I claim no special knowledge of Terriers nor Stroudley, so don’t confuse me with somebody who knows what they are talking about! Following your thread with interest though, because it is a 7 1\4” gauge tank engine. Good luck Gary
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Post by terrier060 on May 22, 2020 19:23:35 GMT
Thanks Gary. Yes I suspect the originals were forged, and the T-section finishes where the curve to the stanchions begins, so it would be easy for them to enlarge the ends. However on the model this just complicates an already difficult process. I am going to bite-the-bullet and 'do a Roger' and try and CNC machine them. I am waiting for the stainless sheet to arrive ( from China I think)! The beading will give great strength and rigidity to the cab side, except for the top, where the T-section stops to cater for the roof.
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on May 22, 2020 23:37:18 GMT
Thanks Gary. Yes I suspect the originals were forged, and the T-section finishes where the curve to the stanchions begins, so it would be easy for them to enlarge the ends. However on the model this just complicates an already difficult process. I am going to bite-the-bullet and 'do a Roger' and try and CNC machine them. I am waiting for the stainless sheet to arrive ( from China I think)! The beading will give great strength and rigidity to the cab side, except for the top, where the T-section stops to cater for the roof. Brave man! Gary
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Post by terrier060 on May 23, 2020 1:15:57 GMT
I would suspect that the beading on most of the preserved Terriers is original, as it is thick enough not to suffer like the thin sheet plates do. Boxhill is heavily manicured with a high polish to all the unpainted steel parts.
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Post by terrier060 on May 23, 2020 12:22:31 GMT
I am making some small G-clamps (picked up from Roger's thread) in aluminium which I will use to hold parts while gluing and riveting. The rivets are so small that with hardened tips I should be able to close them with the G-clamp. They are flush rivets so only require a very shallow countersink. G Clamp Details by ed cloutman, on Flickr
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Post by terrier060 on May 24, 2020 23:11:17 GMT
Finished G-Clamp/riveter - will make a few more, then start putting the cab together. G Clamp S by ed cloutman, on Flickr
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Post by terrier060 on May 25, 2020 19:37:46 GMT
The stainless sheet has arrived so I am having a go at machining it. The beading strips are 15.5 inches long so I am having to machine it by hand on the big mill. Will put pictures up when there is something to show. Bending it is going to be interesting, getting the curves right!
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Post by Roger on May 25, 2020 21:48:31 GMT
The stainless sheet has arrived so I am having a go at machining it. The beading strips are 15.5 inches long so I am having to machine it by hand on the big mill. Will put pictures up when there is something to show. Bending it is going to be interesting, getting the curves right! Just make sure you've got it bolted down well all the way along. Stainless is going to resist being cut through to a wafer, so it will try to lift given half a chance. I bolted mine down to a piece of aluminium with bolts on both sides of the section I was cutting.
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Post by danlank on Jun 2, 2020 22:56:17 GMT
Do they actually get wider at the stanchion end? I thought they just curved out at the same width? Typical, all my photos just miss the top! End of handrail by ed cloutman, on Flickr Probably a bit late, but the Channel 5 show ‘Inside the Steam Train Museum’ has a perfect shot of the top view of the cab handrails on Martello if it’s any use. About 14:30 in... Would be helpful if I could screenshot it but Apple have blocked that functionality now
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Post by terrier060 on Jun 3, 2020 12:37:11 GMT
I think I have taped it so I will go and have a look. Well spotted! And here is the result - well done. As far as Martello goes that makes it clear. I see no reason to suppose that the original early Tanks like Fenchurch were any different. It also makes my job a lot easier. Beading and stancheon tops Martello by ed cloutman, on Flickr Just as well I have been slow going ahead. I have just taken my telescope to pieces to clean the 10" mirror and having got it back together, collating it so that I get sharp images. Latest moon picture since cleaning the mirror, taken in bright sunlight: Moon 2020_05_31 7pm full sunlight Labelled by ed cloutman, on Flickr
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Post by GeorgeRay on Jun 3, 2020 19:47:32 GMT
Ed All the years I used them I was convinced that they got bigger around the vertical handrail but they don't. When you are standing there holding them it certainly feels like they are wider but it must all have been imagination probably due to the difference in radii between the inside and outside fooling the brain into what it is feeling.
George
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Post by terrier060 on Jun 3, 2020 20:22:33 GMT
Hi George What amazed me was that of the hundreds of photos I have taken of Fenchurch, Boxhill, Knowle and Stepney, I did not have one of the top of the stanchions! I always just missed them. For anyone building a Terrier, this series is brilliant, as it shows clearly the fitting of the water tanks and the sheet metal covering which goes over the tanks. This covering was important on the early Terriers when some of the exhaust was used in the condensing apparatus which supplied hot water to the tanks. The tanks were lagged to help retain the heat and the cross-head pumps then pumped the heated water into the boiler. Of course the opposite was required on the later Terriers that had injectors replacing the cross-head pumps. They require cold water to work efficiently. The condensing apparatus was removed. This is why the tank tops appear recessed. The actual tanks have a smooth curve on the outside, but the top had a ridge along it after the lagging covers are added. The programme also shows how the lagging is fixed in sections, and clearly shows the bands around the boiler that the straps are tightened on. Some good shots of the firedoor, which on the Terriers is a flap inside the firebox operated by a ratched lever so that the door can be adjusted to let top air into the firebox. It is a complicated system which makes firing more difficult as it partially obscures the door. In fact the fire hole is rectangular in shape to accommodate this. Firehole by ed cloutman, on Flickr
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Post by GeorgeRay on Jun 3, 2020 20:42:24 GMT
Ed Not only does the flap make firing difficult but because the fire hole is down at floor level it makes seeing what the fire is doing very difficult. To see it means getting down on hands and knees to see the front which is almost impossible when the regulator is open and the loco is working hard. However against that it is much easier to operate than a set of sliding doors. George
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Post by terrier060 on Jun 3, 2020 22:46:37 GMT
George - you are so lucky - I have been building these two Terriers for 30 years and never been on one in steam, never mind driving one. What a wonderful dream that would be to fulfill! I have heard that they were popular to drive and had an exhaust beat that sounded as if they were the happiest locos on the line - was that true?
One naughty thing I did do, and nearly came to grief, is fiddled with the reversing lever, which was not locked and it nearly pulled me into the backhead. Taught me not to touch things I didn't understand. That must have been quite tiring for the driver if there was a lot of shunting to do. Luckily the weight of the Stevenson's gear is a lot lighter on the models!
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
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Post by jma1009 on Jun 4, 2020 21:58:34 GMT
Hi 'danlank',
Thank you for the 'heads up' on the Bressingham Museum programme on Channel 5 which I was unaware of. Well worth watching the first episode for this, which I have done this evening after work.
I am quite happy to concede that from the above, and Jim's pics of Boxhill as now is, the cab handrail does not widen where it meets with the stanchion on Boxhill and Martello.
Cheers,
Julian
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Post by terrier060 on Jun 5, 2020 0:38:00 GMT
Yes a great programme Julian, giving excellent details of the tanks and boiler lagging. Can't quite see why it required so many large bolts along the top of the tanks, which only locate on the thin lagging sheet. There does not seem to be any other fixing. This image is from the Bluebell Railway collection by ed cloutman, on Flickr
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Post by GeorgeRay on Jun 5, 2020 7:53:52 GMT
Ed When built there were only eight fixings. Three along the top and bottom and one in the middle of the vertical sides if that makes sense. Your mention of the reversing lever has reminded me of the fact that it was the only loco that I drove that didn’t have counter weights on the weigh shaft to balance the valve rods. For me it needed a bit of a snatch to pull the gear up, something you couldn’t do if the regulator was open.. George
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Post by terrier060 on Jun 5, 2020 15:23:01 GMT
Yes, counterweights would have been useful. I did not make myself very clear about the bolts. The video shows them fixing the top lagging to the tanks by a series if about 12 or more bolts. You can see most of the bolt holes on the picture above, running along the bottom of the tank(bottom as lying in the picture). Tank by ed cloutman, on Flickr
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Post by terrier060 on Jun 5, 2020 15:57:48 GMT
Returning to the cab beading - it is quite clear that this is in sections on Fenchurch, facilitating removal of the cab in sections. This makes modelling it much simpler, requiring short lengths of beading. I do not know whether the A1 version of Fenchurch was similar, but it seems likely it was. The image on the right is courtesy of the Bluebell Villa Team. Beading sections by ed cloutman, on Flickr
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