Don Young's Black 5

[John Baguley]

Another thought - you could make a little boring bar with a piece of high speed steel set into it like a small between centres boring bar. You would just need a short length of bar to fit nicely inside the tube and drill a cross hole in it for a small piece of round high speed steel held in with  a grubscrew. Put a cutting edge on the HSS and set the tip to the outside diameter of the tube.

John

[jma1009]

Hi Brian,

I cannot offer any positive advice, because it is something quite outside my own experience.

Your club Boiler Inspector's advice is ultimately the only advice that matters.

However, I do recall Ted Jolliffe describing in ME the re-tubing of Percy Wood's IMLEC winning 5"g 'Maid of Kent'. If you have access to back copies of MEs, it is in the 1-14th May 1981 issue (Volume 147 No.3656). I leave it to others to comment on the methods and solutions used 40 years ago, and their relevance under the current boiler codes for new boilers.

Cheers,
Julian

[ettingtonliam]

I don't have access to back copies of ME, but if anyone can put a link on here, I'd be interested to read it.

I can quite readily conceive of a boring tool which can fit into offending tube at the smokebox end, but what is trickier (IMHO) is making it capable of being used in the firebox as well. Followed by potential difficulties in removing the bulk of the tube from inside the boiler barrel afterwards.

[Gary L]

Nov 18, 2021 12:52:17 GMT ettingtonliam said:

I don't have access to back copies of ME, but if anyone can put a link on here, I'd be interested to read it.

I can quite readily conceive of a boring tool which can fit into offending tube at the smokebox end, but what is trickier (IMHO) is making it capable of being used in the firebox as well. Followed by potential difficulties in removing the bulk of the tube from inside the boiler barrel afterwards.

Hi all.

John Baguley has described how to tackle the firebox end, and confirmed that it worked. ISTM that as long as you do the firebox end FIRST, then secure the tube so it can’t drop down (a plug say, or even a piece of stiff wire) you can then do the tricky stuff from the smokebox end. I’d be inclined to bore out the smokebox end to a slightly greater diameter than the tube, to make sure of easy extraction. Then expand that end of the replacement tube to suit, before soldering it back in. (This is more-or-less how its done in full size I think)

Never done it of course, but I’m pretty sure it would work. The soldering is likely to be the tricky bit, I’d have thought.

Gary

[springcrocus]

And don't forget that, if you are using the same cutting head for the firebox end as for the smokebox end, the cutter will need to be run in reverse at one end or the other. I, too, would do the firebox end first. Much easier to keep the tube supported.

Regards, Steve

[ettingtonliam]

Sorry, don't understand. Why, if the cutter works when rotated clockwise at the smokebox end, wouldn't it work rotated clockwise at the firebox end? Surely its like a standard twist drill, cuts clockwise under all circumstances?

Unless you were thinking of operating the cutter at the firebox end via a long shaft through the tube, rather than a short shaft, possibly with a universal joint, through the firehole door?

[Jim]

As a thought would it be easier to seal both ends of the tube using fitted plugs on a suitable length of threaded stainless rod?

Jim

[runner42]

Nov 17, 2021 22:34:29 GMT John Baguley said:

Hi Brian,

A member of our club needed to replace some of the tubes in a Simplex boiler that they had bought (I can't remember exactly why now). They made a cutting tool like a counterbore. The outside diameter of the cutter was made the diameter of the outside of the tube and it had a boss the same diameter of the inside of the tube to keep it perfectly aligned. The cutter was used to accurately cut the end off the tubes where they were soldered into the tube plates without enlarging the holes.

The front tubeplate is easy as you have direct access to the end of the tube but the firebox end is a little more difficult. They made an extension rod that passed through the tube from the smokebox end which screwed into the cutter in the firebox. The cutter could then be  pulled against the end of the tube whilst it was rotated. I think they may have used a cordless drill to rotate the cutter or you could do it by hand. It apparently worked very well. The difficult bit is probably retrieving the tube from inside the boiler once you have cut it free!

You coud probably adapt an existing counterbore if you can find one of the correct diameter.

John

Thanks John,

that appears to be a workable solution. I did think of using an adjustable reamer for the smokebox end since it can be expanded gradually so that it finally cuts the silver solder joint and being tapered enables it to be inserted into the bore to provide sufficient alignment. What do you think? The firebox end is another matter and your solution is also workable but in my case the tube in question is an outside one so it is difficult to get a cutter in position in the firebox and an added problem is the staying is close to the opening. How was the cut off tube removed from the boiler?

Brian

[jma1009]

I understand Steve's point about reversal when using a cutter on a screwed rod for each end.

I don't think removing the split tube is too much of a challenge and should be a relatively straightforward machining job with specially made cutters, though is not something I've ever had any personal experience of, or ever heard about other than the article from 1981 in ME that I referred to. In that article there was no assessment whatsoever of the suitability of the J&M LM14 (I think it was) for this job, and no technical spec provided.

It is really whether to my mind the offending tube in Brian's case ought to be metallurgically examined for a split and why, and then ask are the other tubes immune from the same problem. As others have already suggested.

It is for Brian's club Boiler Inspector to assess what Brian has described on here. Some boiler inspectors will offer advice and help rather than give a binary opinion. Some club boiler inspectors have vast experience.

[runner42]

When designing a MRB I became acquainted with the terms repair and rework. Rework is when after undertaking remedial work the item is fit for purpose and conforms strictly to drawing requirements, repair on the other hand after remedial work the item deviates from the drawing requirements. Replacing a tube satisfies the rework criterion, putting a ferrule in the damaged tube alters the drawing requirements and therefore constitutes a repair. Repair should come under the cognisance of the BI, rework does not.

Any comments?

Brian

[jma1009]

Hi Brian,

Is your above post 'throwing a googly'?

I should imagine that the integrity of the boiler and the integrity of the joints as a pressure vessel would be of uppermost concern, rather than esoteric considerations?

[runner42]

Nov 21, 2021 21:08:50 GMT jma1009 said:

Hi Brian,

Is your above post 'throwing a googly'?

I should imagine that the integrity of the boiler and the integrity of the joints as a pressure vessel would be of uppermost concern, rather than esoteric considerations?

Hi Julian,

I agree 100% with your appraisal of what is critically important in boiler construction. However, my last post in not in conflict with this determination.

Brian

[springcrocus]

Brian, the post that Julian refers to seems strange in my eyes, too. It appears that you are trying to duck the issue of removing the faulty tube and replacing it with a new one. I can understand the disappointment you must feel that things have not gone quite to plan but, surely, it is better to concentrate on doing the repair/replacement/rework - call it what you will - rather than agonising over the politics of your decision.

That fact that it is an outside tube (mentioned in your post of the 18th) is irrelevant since the maximum diameter of the cutter and any of it's assocciated parts is equal to that of the tube. If the end of a stay overlaps this diameter, then file it down to suit.

I would happily sketch you up a cutter, guide and drive rod if it will help you progress with this boiler but I'm sure others could do a much better job than me, and you certainly could if you put your mind to it. Something like an end mill screwed backwards onto a long rod that is already poked up the tube into the firebox and pulled back until the tube is cut clear of the throatplate. Unscrew the cutter, shove the rod further into the firebox to support the tube, cut the front end clear using the cutter on another, shorter rod and draw the tube forwards through the smokebox end using the original drive rod to stop you losing the tube into the boiler space.

Come on, Brian, get that faulty tube cut out and a new one soldered into place. And take some photos so that the rest of us can see how it's done.

Regards, Steve

[richb]

Is this thread for any Black 5 builders to ask questions or is it just a someones build log?
Thanks

[Deleted]

I think most builders are happy to answer questions, I would ask the thread creater first before including pictures though.

Kind regards

Pete

[jma1009]

Hi Brian,

Is there any news on your Black 5 5"g boiler?

Cheers,
Julian

[44767]

Feb 25, 2022 20:29:19 GMT richb said:

Is this thread for any Black 5 builders to ask questions or is it just a someones build log?
Thanks

I don't see why this thread can't be used as a general discussion for Don Young's Black 5, as the name implies. There has been plenty of discussion on here already.

[runner42]

Feb 27, 2022 23:00:07 GMT jma1009 said:

Hi Brian,

Is there any news on your Black 5 5"g boiler?

Cheers,
Julian

Hi Julian,

since your enquiry on the status of my boiler I have had three experienced boiler makers attempting to cure the persistent leak in the RH flue at the junction of the firebox tubeplate. Their approach was to do a bit more of the same which is to add a bit more silver solder to the offending area. You may recall that I posted an enquiry under boiler making and construction indicating that too much silver solder was present generally on the firebox tubeplate and solicited advice on how it could be removed. Without revisiting the answer it was decided that abrasive means was the best solution which suggested that a dentist drill was the best method because of the difficulty of accessing the area of the leak. However, not having a dentist drill available I suggested using my Dremel with a flexible drive and an arbor to abraid the effected area. Long story short I left the boiler and tools with Allan Wallace who with his soldering gear was much better placed to undertake the work. Allan is a busy man, so I had to be patient. Today Allan e-mailed indicating that in removing the excess silver solder that the leak had corrected itself at least at low pressure and this showed a few stays in the firebox needed attention and said stay tuned. So without counting your chickens...... I am hopeful that it will finally be pressure tight.

In anticipation of a succesful outcome I have revisted the locomotive chassis after 3 months and started on the running boards.


Brian 

[coniston]

HI Brian, I really hope that 'good things come to those that wait' in your case. Sounds like your persistence is paying off.

Chris

[runner42]

A month ago I received a dissapointing e-mail from AW telling me that he couldn't completely close the leak in the boiler's firebox tubeplate, so it sat languishing in the shed until a few days ago. However I filled the boiler with water and to my surprise no leaks appeared. This was encouraging, but still a long way from being able to withstand twice working pressure of 160 psi. Tentatively, I applied pressure using my less than perfect pressure testing set up which only can read up to 150 psi, the limitation of the gauge. There was some very fine spray coming from one of the closing plugs in the backhead, which after a time self sealed and now is completely sealed. My assumption is that the residual crud in the boiler assisted this as the pressure forced some particulate matter in the very small opening. So having it sealed at 150 psi, will no doubt make the last 10 psi without issue. 

However, the appearance of the boiler is not a pretty sight, it has the appearance of a much used one and not the shiny copper that would be expected of never been used boiler. I wonder what the BI will think since he last inspected the two major assemblies some time last year. He may think that I've pulled a fast one and presenting another boiler whose pedigree is unknown. But AW will vouch for it.

I will endevour to clean the dull copper and in places mottled with citric acid marks, before submission.

During this four week gap I have completed the running boards and cab, which is an all steel construction. This was fabricated from a 1.6mm sheet which was obtained locally as an off cut for $15. Had I used brass it would have cost over $300 for a quater sheet from the local supplier, much of which would have not been used. DY's drawings relies on the builders ability to complete the construction, such as the means of fixing the cab sides, spectacle plate and roof. The runing boards presented their own problems particularly the right angled edging. The availble brass edging was only 1/4" wide which was too small and availble in lengths that were too short and require joining, also the curved portions at the front and rear required special consideration. The solution was to cut long strips from the steel sheet for the long middle section and similarly a curved pattern for the end sections.

The remaining work is to add the brass half round to the cab edging, which I am not looking forward to. My difficulty is holding it in place for soldering. Any suggestions?

Pictures to follow.

Brian