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Post by delaplume on Dec 8, 2018 16:53:34 GMT
Hello and welcome to this "Thread-by-Request" as it were....I think most of you are aware as to the reason for it's creation and of the events here on the Forum that have inspired me to make a start ??.......In it I hope to cover the general background such as the lead-up to me starting the loco---- the progress to date and the shape of things to come ( Wasn't that from Awsome Wells ?? LoL !! )... My intention is to make an update once a month on -- or about the first of the month, but contributions from your good selves can be made at any time--naturally.. DECEMBER 2018}------ Just some photos to start off with then......Here's a general shot }---- and ...here is a link to the Scunthorpe MES....If you have a good read and trawl around it'll save my typing fingers a lot of stress !! www.scunthorpesme.co.uk/
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,438
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Post by dscott on Dec 9, 2018 0:22:58 GMT
A lovely thread and indeed I do admire the locomotive! Big boilers and size of firebox and length of tubes! Or how I ended up with my Black Five boiler in the car? Yes it was in the garage but the space was needed. It is now in the kitchen! Having an Understanding Wife does help!!! We did club running in Reading and I put the boiler on the side for some interest. Lovely comments at lunchish time as it was a shift pattern with swapping over of drivers for relief on a cold day etc... Tis the day you can compare different boilers on the run with run down fires... Good thing Reading has some woodland you can go and hide in to revive back to happy again. "A Massive Firebox!" was one interesting comment. Which it is! Or long so that the tubes are kept to a shorter length. This is all to do with heat transfer and to prevent the waste of the boiler at the front end if it was over long and in fact not doing anything. Possibly why Churchward did not have much enthusiasm for the project and sort of had to do it as he had bosses above DEMANDING!! With an eye on standard components and being one step ahead of getting her rebuilt as a smaller loco later!!
A bit like the demand for a streamlined Castle and King later on? The Railway got them, but deliberately done as if the models were left in a nursery class with some green modelling clay slapped on by the inhabitants!!! Give the men something important like Piston valve rings, jumper blast pipes and big end bearings and they stayed in way past the bell. Talking of bells, just how much overtime did Sir William spend on sorting out springs on the new King bogie while in America??? OOPS.
Anyway let's all look forward to a very interesting locomotive taking shape in future pages. In fact a wonderful time to undertake such a project in light of the latest developments in rapid prototyping for the more complex inner castings. I do have a set of Castle drawings which I get out every 5 or so years and have a sort of read through... Not unsimilar to War and Peace to read when bored. These are from Pete's originals as I got to know him well and the comments in between the incredible scale bits are indeed superb! Love and Best wishes. David and Lily.
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Post by delaplume on Dec 9, 2018 2:00:40 GMT
Thanks David for that first contribution....It was lovely to host you and Lily recently.. Peter Rich was indeed a great chap-- I was lucky enough to meet him several times when he visited Ray Tranter at Brignorth Workshops, SVR... Here's a few more photos to be going on with------
The tender is an 0 gauge model I found on E-Bay all by itself !!..........It sits near my desk just to give me some incentive from time to time......It is / was a fore-shortened version of the loco bogie.........After I created the needed drawings my good contact at ME Laser Malcolm High produced the 8 shorter equalising beams along with the other chassis parts.....
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Post by delaplume on Dec 9, 2018 18:54:11 GMT
Here's a bit of luck---------just found this on the Forum today---------It's my Drawing "Office" where all the Research and Production drawings were created.....
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Dec 10, 2018 1:50:01 GMT
[Snip] Possibly why Churchward did not have much enthusiasm for the project and sort of had to do it as he had bosses above DEMANDING!! With an eye on standard components and being one step ahead of getting her rebuilt as a smaller loco later!! [Snip] Churchward certainly made a few wry remarks about the loco and its underwhelming performance, but it was a prestige project for himself as well as the GWR, and in retirement he was reportedly quite upset when Collet rebuilt the Bear into a Castle. -Gary
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Lisa
Statesman
Posts: 806
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Post by Lisa on Dec 10, 2018 8:06:00 GMT
Speaking of The Great Bear, this 4¾" gauge model just showed up on my twitter timeline: At Sir Berkeley Sheffield’s Normanby Park Railway, apparently.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 8:42:45 GMT
Hi Alan
I shall be following with interest....I like her lines very much..
Cheers
Pete
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Post by delaplume on Dec 10, 2018 9:30:41 GMT
Hi Alan I shall be following with interest....I like her lines very much.. Cheers Pete Hi Peter, I suspect that the young lady in the photo has long since passed away ...... LoL !!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 9:51:47 GMT
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Post by delaplume on Dec 10, 2018 13:11:17 GMT
Hello everyone, and thanks for looking in and making a contribution... Lisa}---- that photo is part of the write-up in the Scunthorpe MES link shown earlier on here....As mentioned it's at Normanby Park, North Lincolnshire which is just outside Scunthorpe and it's where the Scunthorpe MES are located .......That building still exists and it's their clubhouse and stores with an access track coming from the main circuit and into the building... The track that you see in the photo is no longer there....Just where the young Lady driver is situated is now a Calor Gas secure compound.....and where the bald chap is sitting is where I took a photo of Joyce........My scanner / printer has gone to "Cashmoores" ( well known loco scrap yard in the Midlands ) ... I'll post any scanned stuff later on.... We've been there twice now and a very warm greeting was experienced both times......Their main chap is Wilf and he--along with the club in general--- act as custodians on behalf of the local Council... If you all have a good read of their link you can get a lot more info than I want to type... ------ www.scunthorpesme.co.uk/ ------ I hope "Midland" and "Simplyloco" are reading this because the Scunthorpe's Great Bear was re-gauged and re-boilered at some time during it's life by someone in the Southampton Club.....Perhaps you or one of your Senior members might remember this and add some more info to this thread ??... I'd be very grateful and will also add the info into my main archive of this project.. I remember seeing the loco and it's original boiler in the entrance foyer to a miniature steam model makers in the South West but can't remeber just who it was....Any ideas out there ?? FLASH THOUGHT !!.........maybe Cheddar Models
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Post by delaplume on Dec 10, 2018 13:36:42 GMT
[Snip] Possibly why Churchward did not have much enthusiasm for the project and sort of had to do it as he had bosses above DEMANDING!! With an eye on standard components and being one step ahead of getting her rebuilt as a smaller loco later!! [Snip] Churchward certainly made a few wry remarks about the loco and its underwhelming performance, but it was a prestige project for himself as well as the GWR, and in retirement he was reportedly quite upset when Collet rebuilt the Bear into a Castle. -Gary Hi Gary, Not ignoring you matey !!-----I'm just not quick at typing etc... I think the thing for all of us to remember is that The Bear entered revenue earning service in February, 1908...so was conceived and built approx 1906 - 1908 ...... OK, let's put that into perspective for the modern person}---- The Titanic was launched 31st May, 1911....ie that's just over 3 years AFTER The Bear's own launch, as it were..... So here they ( the GWR ) were at the height of the Edwardian period ( 1901 to 1910 ) with G.J. Churchward ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Jackson_Churchward ) firmly at the helm in Swindon and his Star Class locos ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_4000_Class doing sterling service over all the main lines of the day.... REQUEST}---- can you good folk tell me what were the equivalent main line locos of the other Railway Companies of that particular year of 1908 pleas ?? I'll edit out this paragraph later on..
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Post by drumkilbo on Dec 10, 2018 21:42:45 GMT
Surprised that no one has replied to your query of equivalent locos of other companies in 1908, my own 2 favourites would be the Ivatt Atlantics of the GNR (Maisie ) and the 903 class of the Caledonian Railway, the most famous being Cardean which was named after the estate of one of the company's directors or maybe chairman Edward Cox, jute baron of Dundee, I worked on Cardean estate and my house is called Cardean, they also owned Drumkilbo, hence my nom de plume. Hopefully others will come up with equivalent locos of other companies. The Great Bear seems to be a mighty beast and well named. Ian
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 21:53:56 GMT
Ahh.. Sorry Alan and Ian...I meant to post earlier but gave up trying to push the right keys...lol Yes I would say Ivatt Atlantics...I think in 1908 these would be the C1's small boiler types...I think the larger boiler C2 type came out later...perhaps in LNER days. I'm sure someone will correct me if I have this wrong?
Pete
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Post by delaplume on Dec 10, 2018 23:18:23 GMT
Surprised that no one has replied to your query of equivalent locos of other companies in 1908, my own 2 favourites would be the Ivatt Atlantics of the GNR (Maisie ) and the 903 class of the Caledonian Railway, the most famous being Cardean which was named after the estate of one of the company's directors or maybe chairman Edward Cox, jute baron of Dundee, I worked on Cardean estate and my house is called Cardean, they also owned Drumkilbo, hence my nom de plume. Hopefully others will come up with equivalent locos of other companies. The Great Bear seems to be a mighty beast and well named. Ian Hi Ian, good of you to join in with an interesting contribution.....I'm hoping to generate an overall appreciation of the world that The Bear came into----especially it's rivals on other company lines and also the Political and Social background prevalent at that time....What were the headlines in the papers for instance that Churchward would sit down to in the morning ??............. Yes, it was a whopper by the values of the time............. Britains first Pacific loco, and indeed the only Pacific for another 20 years or so.....When did those Raven Pacifics first see the light of day I wonder ??
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Post by delaplume on Dec 10, 2018 23:22:06 GMT
Hello all,
Please note that I have altered the thread title so as to allow a broader scope for contributors.....
Alan
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Post by delaplume on Dec 10, 2018 23:32:58 GMT
Hello everyone, I've included this photo of the old water troughs at Goring, Berkshire for two reasons}--- 1) At the time of The Bears entry into traffic they were to be seen all over the country's main lines etc...an every day part of a Firemans life and now ---ALL GONE !! What you can't see in the photo is the Water treatment plant just out of sight....A happy place for young Alan in the 1950's.. 2) Unusually you can see the start of the troughs and by now the Fireman will be lowering the scoop to just skim the water top.....The Bears tender scoop had to be moved as part of a re-design and apparently the blanking plate on the floor could still be seen.......alledgedly that is !!
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Dec 10, 2018 23:48:40 GMT
I never cease to be fascinated by 'The Great Bear'! It occupied an iconic place in GWR publicity from 1908 till 1923, and is one of the most interesting 'one offs' the GWR built.
Imagine an LMS Princess 4-6-2 built in 1908!
I think my own fascination was created in my formative years when in short trousers riding behind and closely watching the Thurston miniature locomotives on the Littlehampton Miniature Railway - they were 'derived' from H S C Bullock's own development in miniature of GWR designs, loosely.
Cheers,
Julian
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Dec 11, 2018 0:45:32 GMT
Churchward certainly made a few wry remarks about the loco and its underwhelming performance, but it was a prestige project for himself as well as the GWR, and in retirement he was reportedly quite upset when Collet rebuilt the Bear into a Castle. -Gary Hi Gary, Not ignoring you matey !!-----I'm just not quick at typing etc... I think the thing for all of us to remember is that The Bear entered revenue earning service in February, 1908...so was conceived and built approx 1906 - 1908 ...... OK, let's put that into perspective for the modern person}---- The Titanic was launched 31st May, 1911....ie that's just over 3 years AFTER The Bear's own launch, as it were..... So here they ( the GWR ) were at the height of the Edwardian period ( 1901 to 1910 ) with G.J. Churchward ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Jackson_Churchward ) firmly at the helm in Swindon and his Star Class locos ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_4000_Class doing sterling service over all the main lines of the day.... [Snip] Hi Alan Absolutely right. It is important to judge by the standards of the time, not what we know with the benefit of hindsight. Bearing (oops) in mind that the Bear was mechanically more or less a Star with a bigger boiler, bored-out cylinders and extra wheels, and the Stars were proving to be excellent engines, we can see that the disappointment with the Bear was a relative thing, not absolute. Churchward was expecting even greater things from the Bear because of the huge boiler, but that isn't what he got. By all accounts the boiler was not a good steamer to begin with, though this was eventually much improved; in the light of developments much later we can see that its proportions were probably suboptimal. Meanwhile, the Bear had a weight penalty which greatly restricted her availability, and there were issues with the trailing truck as well. According to Ozzie Nock, the impetus to build her did not come from the GW Board at all, but from Churchward himself, though the Board was very happy with the publicity: "most powerful locomotive in Great Britain" and all that. In fact it was the introduction of the Castles in 1923 that probably put the Bear into penalty time. With the Castle class (significantly smaller and more useful engines) being promoted in their turn as the "The Most Powerful Passenger Engine in Britain" the huge Bear became something of an embarrassment. Even so, Collett soldiered on with the loco until 1924, when it needed an expensive major overhaul (there was no spare boiler for it) whereupon as we know, he quietly (and wisely) converted it to a Castle. Good luck with your model- we will watch with interest Gary
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Post by delaplume on Dec 11, 2018 3:41:55 GMT
Hello everyone, Here are a couple of photographs of the Normanby "Bear" taken at the ME Show, Harrogate about 3 years ago.......... [
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mbrown
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,719
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Post by mbrown on Dec 11, 2018 7:53:56 GMT
1908 is the date that North British Loco Co. in Glasgow built the first three 0-6-0s for the Burma Mines Company, as per my model pictured in the avatar.
Nothing like as sophisticated as the Bear, of course, but if you look at what the independent contractors were building at the time for the overseas market, they were often way ahead of the domestic railway companies. NBL turned out some amazing machines for export early in the century.
In his autobiography, the LMS draughtsman Eric Langridge speaks highly of designers with "contract shop" training. But I wonder whether the rather insular culture at Swindon meant that there was little interchange with the big contract companies.
Malcolm
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