jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,919
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Post by jma1009 on Nov 28, 2019 21:42:59 GMT
Looking at the links helpfully provided by Will on here, someone ought to know who built the loco and where, and upon which track it was photographed running, and therefore which club, and therefore a lead to a club boiler test, from which the boiler test records can be re-constructed?
I stamp one of the frame strechers with my name and date etc.
Someone will recall, surely that lovely single acting Westinghouse pump as a water pump - I've seen very few of this size and none like this one exactly, and it is always a point of interest for some of us.
Also look very carefully for any stamp marks on the lower backhead below the cab floor. Suggest you also take some pics of the inside firebox for those of us to see from underneath.
Bit of detective work required, Andy! And hopefully more help from forum members re the points I have noted. That Westinghouse pump really is quite something! John (Baggo) - do you recognise it as one of LBSC's 2.5"g pump designs?
Cheers,
Julian
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Post by overner on Nov 28, 2019 21:55:40 GMT
I have been reading the Boiler Test Code 2018 and found this paragraph:
'If the certificates are lost, and if the current certificate issuer cannot
be traced and duplicate certificates issued, the boiler shall be
submitted for retest which shall include an examination and initial
hydraulic shell test (2xPW). This test may be carried out with the
fittings attached provided that the Inspector is confident that they
will withstand the test pressure.'
Does this imply that if the fittings are attached, the boiler will be in the frames?
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uuu
Elder Statesman
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Post by uuu on Nov 28, 2019 22:33:05 GMT
I think "fittings" in this context will be water gauges, regulator, blowdown, whistle, blower valves etc. You may be able to get the boiler naked enough for an inspection while in the frames, but I suspect it might be less disruptive to try and get it out. As always, the inspectors verdict is the only one that counts - but they are open to persuasion.
Wilf
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,919
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Post by jma1009 on Nov 28, 2019 23:00:23 GMT
Hi Wilf,
Removing the blowdown valves (there are 2 on Boxhill) and the regulator?! And the blower valve (not blower valves, plural)?!
The regulator can be blanked off at the wet header or via the steampipe to the steamchest with a disc.
I would suggest instead a preliminary examination is required of the inside of the firebox and to establish its condition.
This loco has obviously run on a club track somewhere before painting, as per the pics via Will's links. There ought to be a paper trail that requires investigating, and a bit of detective work. Apart from the chimney, this appears to be a very well built loco by someone who added lots of nice details. I have examined the pics provided by Will, and believe me Boxhill is not an easy loco to build, and the only thing I can fault with is the chimney, which is easily rectified.
As stated previously, Andy needs to do more detective work and research, though I appreciate he may be up against a time limit for returning the loco to it's seller, and time may not be on his side.
Cheers,
Julian
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Post by John Baguley on Nov 28, 2019 23:43:05 GMT
Julian - no I don't recognise the pump design offhand unfortunately. I'm not sure if Martin Evans did a design? *
The track looks as though it has 7¼" rails on the raised track which narrows it down a bit (unless it is just on the steaming bays). The only one that I know is Tingley and it's not there.
My bad - I was looking at the'track' on the SRS website!
* Yes, I think it is the LBSC design Westinghouse pump (LO84) but with the lower air pump modified to act as a water pump instead*
John
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,919
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Post by jma1009 on Nov 29, 2019 0:08:48 GMT
Hi John (Baggo),
Many thanks for your reply. I don't recall Martin Evans ever designing a 'Westinghouse' pump as a water pump, though I stand to be corrected. I have the late Bob Youldon's drawings for his pump for his 5"g Terrier of scale size. I have all the 5"g O2 'Fishbourne' drawings by Don Young, including the single acting pump that I was told won't work!
What is fitted to Andy's loco is something rather special. Someone ought to know about this pump and the loco and it's builder.
My usual mantra is that a loco with no boiler test certificates is worth no more than the cost of the castings and materials used on the chassis etc, but there are clues here that this ought not to be the case, and further investigation and research is required.
Cheers,
Julian
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Post by delaplume on Nov 29, 2019 12:27:04 GMT
Hi,
Did you buy it from the E-Bay person at Weston Supermare or from SRS over in Lincoln area ??..........
In my opinion SRS are a well known and proven professional company with a trusted reputation built up over many years..
The E-bay chap is actually a "Trader" of sorts ie}--- buys and sells on a regular basis....but by his own admission is not a Model Engineer ....
I have bought and sold to both parties over recent years.. visited their respective premises and met the people concerned on more than one occasion....
So I'm sort of "Piggy in the middle" so to speak..
As this is your first loco the last thing you need is a full strip and boiler remove job...( I assume you don't have the required skills anyway ?? )...
You want to be out on the track enjoying your loco....If no supporting paperwork is available then take it back......You have "Distance Trading Laws" and E-Bay support ie}--- Not as described. and "I've changed my mind" cooling off period to help you....( Did you pay by Credit Card ?? )
If the seller is worth his salt he'll take it back without quibbling AND offer a full refund...
Then, with the support of the IoW club you can make a fully informed decision when you find another loco for sale...
It's a lovely looking model and I can fully understand any reluctance to let it go......
BUT surely this must be a case of Head over-ruling heart....??
(Braces myself for incoming, friendly fire !!--LoL !! )
PS}--- where's "Wills links" ??
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Post by simplyloco on Nov 29, 2019 14:42:27 GMT
SNIP You want to be out on the track enjoying your loco....If no supporting paperwork is available then take it back......You have "Distance Trading Laws" and E-Bay support ie}--- Not as described. and "I've changed my mind" cooling off period to help you....( Did you pay by Credit Card ?? ) If the seller is worth his salt he'll take it back without quibbling AND offer a full refund... Agreed. I stand by my original post. Good luck. John |
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Post by overner on Nov 29, 2019 15:10:25 GMT
Wills links: link to ebay page www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LIVE-STEAM-LOCOMOTIVE-LB-amp-SCR-034-TERRIER-034-SUPERB-BUILD-5-inch-TESTED-THENPAINT-/274057271833?hash=item3fcf161a19%3Ag%3AhcYAAOSw1V9drt9M&nma=true&si=9trUkiTy%252BRJ%252FafuP8JVaDB%252F8eJI%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557Link to station road steam page www.stationroadsteam.com/5-inch-gauge-lbscr-terrier-stock-code-7678/Thanks for your comments delaplume - Yes I do have the required skills gained from a 5 year aircraft Technician apprenticeship at British Aircraft corporation (a long long time ago), restoration of classic cars, motorbikes, models of all sorts although new to live steam ... Nail on the head re. Heart over head .. I am not worried about stripping out the boiler in fact it would be one way to really get to know the Terrier, it would cost next to nothing, just my retired free time .. The thing that pees me off is having to do this having paid the money that I did ... Which is where my head says 'send it back' I had been waiting for a Terrier or Adams 02 (living on the IoW) and this seemed ideal .. Anyway, a summary of where I am in my investigations: I have spoken to Mike at SRS who will contact the guy who sold the loco to SRS. This chap bought it from the builder and if I can contact him, find the boilermaker, or the club where the boiler was tested (We think somewhere in the suffolk area) I have also contacted David Mayall who is the boiler registrar at the Southern Federation of Model Engineering Societies. I gave hime the boiler ID and he is going to look this up on their database and get back to me. I also have the name and address of the chap who bought the Terrier from SRS as they say that the paperwork was supplied with the engine so will write to him. So thats the end of my Inspector Clouseau moment .. Will Head win over Heart? Probably, but I will be sorry to see it returned ... I really appreciate all the advice, assistance and comments - This forum was the right place to be. |
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Post by ettingtonliam on Nov 29, 2019 15:49:23 GMT
You'd think, wouldn't you, that for a recently built, well documented loco, it wouldn't be that difficult to work back from SRS to the guy who sold it to them, and hence to whoever built it, and get the answers to the questions about the boiler? A bit suspicious though, that if Mike at SRS (who seems to be a trustworthy type of chap) says he handed on the boiler paperwork, and now the ebay vendor says hes lost it?
I'm hoping for a good outcome for you.
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Post by overner on Nov 29, 2019 16:48:47 GMT
I have to say that Mike at SRS has been extremely helpful both by email and phone conversation - No connection and not even a customer - yet!
Incidently, David Mayall the Boiler Registrar at Souther Fed. is of the opinion that an initial 2x test could be performed with boiler in frames
and IF there was an undetectable leak, then perhaps a boiler out would have to be done ...
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Post by overner on Nov 29, 2019 16:56:58 GMT
The seller has contacted me to advise that 'George Bannagan' may have built the boiler (I.D. GB12) and if so will provide a replacement certificate ... !!
Has anyone heard of him? Should I be worried about the authenticity of the Certificate?
Andy
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Post by John Baguley on Nov 29, 2019 17:08:37 GMT
Think it's George Branigan (sp) - GB boilers from Coventry. He's a well known commercial boiler maker and has built probably hundreds of boilers.
John
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Post by overner on Nov 29, 2019 17:47:42 GMT
Think it's George Branigan (sp) - GB boilers from Coventry. He's a well known commercial boiler maker and has built probably hundreds of boilers.
John
Thanks John - I have found his contact details on the web and have emailed him. He is away until Wednesday ... Fingers and everything else crossed ... ps - Also found him on Linkedin - George Brannigan - Model Boiler Maker |
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Post by coniston on Nov 29, 2019 23:13:28 GMT
If it is of any interest I have two boilers from GB, the latest one is GB856, built in May 2019, so not sure how his numbering goes but if yours is GB12 it could be quite old. George is a most helpful guy so I'm sure he'll do all he can.
Chris D
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Post by overner on Nov 30, 2019 8:00:34 GMT
That's reassuring Chris.. It was built in 2012 so if that was one of his first and George has built around 2 per week or 120 per year, does that sound about right?
I have spent several days phoning, emailing and posting to this forum so I really hope this will be a satisfactory outcome ...
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Post by overner on Nov 30, 2019 11:07:53 GMT
Hopefully, that is the initial test certificate sorted, which leaves the WSE.
How do I go about obtaining this assuming previous ones have been lost?
Having trawled the forums again, it seems like it is my club inspector who issues a new WSE as I am the new owner, once he has completed the boiler tests ..
Andy
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,919
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Post by jma1009 on Nov 30, 2019 22:45:08 GMT
Hi Andy,
Well, That's good news that you have a professionally made boiler with a provenance of both the builder and paper trail that can be reconstructed. As Harold MacMillan once posted on the Cabinet Office door, "quiet calm deliberation disentangles every knot". Although the Boxhill chassis is like a Swiss watch and very complicated, the boiler is a piece of cake.
I think most club boiler inspectors, when faced with a professionally made boiler, and lacking certain paperwork, would exercise their discretion, particularly as you are now in sort of contact with George, and following on from the most helpful posts by John Baguley (Baggo) that have been most important.
I can quote to you a precedent for the IWMES with a boiler built by Alec Farmer, with no paperwork, that was passed without question by one of the IWMES boiler inspectors - just because Alec's stamp marks were on the boiler, and the loco not having been in steam for some 20 years.
Cheers,
Julian
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Post by overner on Dec 1, 2019 18:10:10 GMT
Tried the oil down the blastpipe (only had 3 in 1 oil), pushed loco along 8' section of track forward and backwards and re-tested on air. Eureka - Now it runs !!! The motion is a little noisy but I guess that should be easily fixable. Now just the wait to see if George Brannigan can supply the boiler cert. and then speak to the club Boiler tester ... Getting there ... A big thanks to all for your help and suggestions ....  |
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Post by jo479 on Dec 1, 2019 19:33:01 GMT
For some reason only known to him above and the Boiler committee, a new WSE has to be written out even if the engine only changes hands in the Club, I was politely told off for not doing so, the mind boggles. It's only a hobby, isn't it?
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