Tool and Cutter Grinder

[coniston]

Hi one and all, I am looking into acquiring a tool and cutter grinder of some sort. I know there are a number of 'kit' designs, Quorn, Kennet, Stent, Worden, to name a few and of course industrial machines like Clarkson, Deckel (and the Chinese variants of) etc.

I have used one of the Chinese 'D Bit' grinders that are copies of the Deckel and was quite impressed buy the ease of use for ends of end mills and slot drills, however trying to sharpen the flutes was not so easy, probably due to poor manufacture/maintenance of the particular machine. The drill grinding attachment was pretty useless as well. I didn't try the lathe tool accessory as at the time I didn't need to, but I see from videos that it should work ok.

My intended use is primarily to sharpen end mills/slot drills (both teeth and flutes), drills (preferably 4 facet grinding) lathe tools in particular radius tools both internal and external and if possible radius edge on end mills/ball nose cutter. This maybe an unachievable list?

So to my question, from personal experience does anyone have any particular recommendations for a suitable tool and cutter grinder to be bench mounted? I really don't want to embark on a major project to build from scratch, although the Worden doesn't look as involved as others and I don't have room for another floor standing piece of equipment.

Look forward to hearing your views, thanks in advance

Chris D

[flyingfox]

Greetings Chris, I think we spoke recently, but having made & lived with a Stent which works well, I have since acquired a Quorn, which I think is OK to use, once you get the hang of it. The Stent has now been sold to another member of this forum.
Regards
Brian

[coniston]

Hello Brian, yes it was me that spoke to you this week. Nice to know you're on the forum and that another forum member benefitted from the sale.

Chris D

[Jo]

Feb 1, 2021 23:06:09 GMT coniston said:

So to my question, from personal experience does anyone have any particular recommendations for a suitable tool and cutter grinder to be bench mounted? I really don't want to embark on a major project to build from scratch, although the Worden doesn't look as involved as others and I don't have room for another floor standing piece of equipment.

I had a Quorn - they are a pain to set up so I sold it.

I had a Deckel engraver grinder modified to grind the end of milling cutters. I sold it to make more space (and I did well out of the sale   )


I still own a Union, it sits on a bench, it has lots of tooling. Tooling is very, very important if you have a Tool and cutter grinder.

I have drawers and drawers of HSS cutters that can be sharpened. Do I sharpen them? Very rarely. I buy cheap Chinese carbide cutters and once beyond usefulness throw them away. I seem to recall grinding the flutes once but then you have an under diameter cutter which is a pain. I have all the drill sharpening jigs but again quality drills are so cheap it is not worth bothering. I do use it for its true purpose grinding up specialist cutters and for that purpose it is worth giving it workshop space.

If someone gives you one I would say thank you, other wise use the bench space for something else and most clubs have one available any way (normally a member gave it to them because they also decided the amount of space it took up vs the amount of use they got out of it did not balance). 

Jo

[coniston]

Feb 2, 2021 19:14:50 GMT Jo said:

Feb 1, 2021 23:06:09 GMT coniston said:

So to my question, from personal experience does anyone have any particular recommendations for a suitable tool and cutter grinder to be bench mounted? I really don't want to embark on a major project to build from scratch, although the Worden doesn't look as involved as others and I don't have room for another floor standing piece of equipment.

I had a Quorn - they are a pain to set up so I sold it.

I had a Deckel engraver grinder modified to grind the end of milling cutters. I sold it to make more space (and I did well out of the sale   )


I still own a Union, it sits on a bench, it has lots of tooling. Tooling is very, very important if you have a Tool and cutter grinder.

I have drawers and drawers of HSS cutters that can be sharpened. Do I sharpen them? Very rarely. I buy cheap Chinese carbide cutters and once beyond usefulness throw them away. I seem to recall grinding the flutes once but then you have an under diameter cutter which is a pain. I have all the drill sharpening jigs but again quality drills are so cheap it is not worth bothering. I do use it for its true purpose grinding up specialist cutters and for that purpose it is worth giving it workshop space.

If someone gives you one I would say thank you, other wise use the bench space for something else and most clubs have one available any way (normally a member gave it to them because they also decided the amount of space it took up vs the amount of use they got out of it did not balance). 

Jo

That's certainly an interesting view Jo, as you I tend to use replaceable tip tools in the lathe and throw away cutters in the mill (for smaller cutters anyway). An yes we do have a Quorn in one club and a Chinese Deckel replica in the other so there is some mileage in what you say there. The Quorn seems to be short on collets and things an no-one I have spoken to knows if it is complete or how to use it. This is a possible project for me to get it working if I can and make the necessary extra bits. I think it is sharpening end mills (I have like most model engineers collected a large selection over the years) and accurate drill grinding that I want to have the facility to do as well as form tool grinding for lathe tools.
Thanks for your views

Chris D

[jackrae]

I know it's sacrilege, and breaks all the 'rules', but for the past 30 years I've managed to keep my milling cutters going by free-hand grinding them on my 6" bench grinder. The cutting faces and angles might not be ideal but they work well enough to meet my needs. Part machined castings for a Stent grinder have been 'ageing' nicely on my shelf for a similar period

[coniston]

Feb 4, 2021 13:27:05 GMT jackrae said:

I know it's sacrilege, and breaks all the 'rules', but for the past 30 years I've managed to keep my milling cutters going by free-hand grinding them on my 6" bench grinder. The cutting faces and angles might not be ideal but they work well enough to meet my needs. Part machined castings for a Stent grinder have been 'ageing' nicely on my shelf for a similar period

Thanks for your thoughts, I have been reading the workshop Practice book on tool and cutter grinding by Harold Hall and viewed his website and videos. H explains how to make a fairly simple adjustable rest and accessories to be able to use an off hand grinder to sharpen most tools. This seems a pragmatic way to go without too much cost or time involved. I can recommend the book as a good read it anyone is interested to learn about the subject without overcomplication.

Chris D

[uuu]

John had a go a flute sharpening on the Pump House cutter grinder (make unknown). I wasn't a particularly easy thing to set up, or do, involving a finger against which the flute rested as the table was moved left and right. But it worked, and rescued a cutter that was needed for the job in hand - on the manual mill, where the reduction in cutter diameter was not an issue. But the low effort/reward ratio puts it in the "tried it once, didn't like it" category.

Wilf

[coniston]

Feb 5, 2021 8:19:46 GMT uuu said:

John had a go a flute sharpening on the Pump House cutter grinder (make unknown). I wasn't a particularly easy thing to set up, or do, involving a finger against which the flute rested as the table was moved left and right. But it worked, and rescued a cutter that was needed for the job in hand - on the manual mill, where the reduction in cutter diameter was not an issue. But the low effort/reward ratio puts it in the "tried it once, didn't like it" category.

Wilf

Thanks Wilf, yes I agree setting up a tool and cutter grinder, particularly without experience seems to be quite a task but I guess you only do it when there are sufficient blunt cutters to sharpen to make the time spent worth while. 

Chris D

[simplyloco]

Feb 5, 2021 8:19:46 GMT uuu said:

John had a go a flute sharpening on the Pump House cutter grinder (make unknown). I wasn't a particularly easy thing to set up, or do, involving a finger against which the flute rested as the table was moved left and right. But it worked, and rescued a cutter that was needed for the job in hand - on the manual mill, where the reduction in cutter diameter was not an issue. But the low effort/reward ratio puts it in the "tried it once, didn't like it" category.

Wilf

Agreed. I used them in the Army out of necessity, and they are dead handy, but nowadays, like others on here, I buy new cutters instead...

[jcsteam]

I was given a Clarkson tool cutter grinder, with loads of accessories, including mag chuck and centres. I can apparently grind upto 2.5" dia milling cutters, but my machines can't handle anything over 1/2" dia shanks. Still I can grind arbours and other tooling which is what it'll be used for.
Regards
Jon

[dscott]

I suspect Cutter Grinders are of a similar breed to Lathes and Milling machines in that they need their own weight in accessories many and various. Got to the Bristol Exhibition very early one year and head of the queue so was first at the Machinery store.
Poor Bank account with me grabbing a magnetic chuck and a Raglan Backplate. Not too far from the car that year.

(Bank Manager to Mr Scott???) No Sir not Money Laundering it is sadly a YEAR since I went to any EXHIBITIONS to spend it!!!

A large Diamond file sold by Tiranti has done many hours of sharpening so far.

David and Lily.

[John Baguley]

I acquired a Quorn in exchange for some work I did for someone. I tried to sharpen the cutting edges of an endmill a year or so ago and gave up! I just couldn't get the angles right. There's just too much to adjust. I finished up using my Kennet instead and did the job in a couple of minutes.

I will have a play with the Quorn when I've got nothing better to do and try and suss it out but the Kennet is fine for simple jobs like sharpening lathe tools and the ends of endmills. Like most people now though I just buy carbide endmills and replace them when they get too blunt to use.

John

[uuu]

At home (not the Pump House), I have a Borenmaster "Tiplap" machine. It's of a similar layout to the Deckel machines, but has a simpler tool holder, which won't rotate the tool on its axis, as it's designed for finish-sharpening lathe tools. For which task it's excellent.

Just a shame I mostly use exchangeable-tip tools!

I have a cunning plan, to create a holder to present end mills in three our four intervals, to have their ends cleaned up, but have never got round to it.

Wilf

[johnd]

I built one of the sharpening tables as shown in Harold Halls book “Tool and cutter sharpening” which is No.38 of the workshop practice series. Over the last 10 years have used this to sharpen drills, 4 facet and touch up the end faces of end mills. This was my first homemade workshop tool, fairly quick and cheap to make and has proved useful. Also a good project for the beginner. I have all the Harold Hall books, very useful.

[coniston]

Feb 6, 2021 13:33:10 GMT johnd said:

I built one of the sharpening tables as shown in Harold Halls book “Tool and cutter sharpening” which is No.38 of the workshop practice series. Over the last 10 years have used this to sharpen drills, 4 facet and touch up the end faces of end mills. This was my first homemade workshop tool, fairly quick and cheap to make and has proved useful. Also a good project for the beginner. I have all the Harold Hall books, very useful.

Thanks John, I have recently bought the same book and also his book on milling (No. 35) which shows the more complex version, I am in two minds which one to make, maybe the simpler one in the first book is a good start along with his accessories. I think this may be a suitable alternative to a tool and cutter grinder as I have 2 off hand grinders so can adapt one specifically for tool grinding. 

Chris D

[johnd]

Chris,
took this today, thought it might give you a bit of kick to get started.
all the best

john

[simplyloco]

Apologies to Johnd!

Chris,

I took this today, thought it might give you a bit of kick to get started.

All the best

John

[coniston]

Thank you John and John, I am planning to make the Harold Hall simple rest as shown in johnd's photo with the accessories. I already do something similar to you Simplyloco but it is very limited.

Chris D

[johnd]

Chris,
Not too sure if ypu are aware but Harold Hall wrote a follow up article on the grinding rest showing grinding setups and updates to his original designs in MEW issue 176 May 2011. Worth a read if you intend building.

John,
Like the setup but not too sure if I could live with the yellow finish on your square.👍