Current recommendations for a beginner

[chrisb]

I am looking to take first steps into "digital drawing" to allow me to get parts laser/water jet cut.
What are people using either modest cost or free?

[uuu]

I'm using SolidEdge from Siemens which, in 2D form, is free: Siemens website

I think the 3D version might also be free for hobby use, but I've never explored this as I just wanted a pen-and-paper equivalent, rather than having to learn the form-development techniques of solid modelling.

It took me a while to get used to the program, but it is very thorough.

Wilf

[chrisb]

Thanks Wilf, I had seen your comments elsewhere about Solid Edge. The rest of the software discussions seem a little dated as to what is current.

[racinjason]

I use Fusion 360 for CAD/CAM and generating DXF files to send to the laser cutter's, I really like that I can generate a model then in the same program generate the tool path's and flip back and forth to modify the model if needed.
Cheers Jason.

[chrisb]

Hi Jason which version of Fusion360 are you using? I have seen comments from last year that the hobby/personal edition is limited in what you can output?

[racinjason]

I used the free version for along a couple of years when they changed the license agreement then only problem I really had was with the some of the cam options that were disabled so I purchased a license for that reason.
cheers Jason.

[uuu]

Just noting that SolidEdge is CAD only, not CAM. Which is fine for third-party laser firms who will do their own toolpath generation from the drawing. It can save in dxf format.

For CAM, I use CamBam, which is not free, but is cheap. I've not tried it on 3D, for which Fusion seems attractive because, as noted, it can flip between CAD and CAM whereas I have to save in one program and reload in the other.
Wilf

[Neale]

I use F360 for CAD and CAM - takes me from 3D model through to tool paths for my machines. No dxf output, though, in the free version as already noted - and the paid version is not cheap. I'm slowly moving to Solid Edge 3D for modelling, though, although (again, as noted) there's no CAM. However, you can export 3D models, import into F360, and use its CAM.

Then there is the 2D/3D question. Do you want to build a full 3D computer-based model which allows you to match dimensions, hole positions, etc, between components, generate multiple 2D engineering drawings and isometric views with a few mouse clicks, or use a power-operated drawing board? A very sophisticated, powerful, drawing board, I have to say, but one where you are responsible for matching hole positions, dimensions, etc, yourself - just like proper draughtsmen do!

The 2D learning curve is not as steep or as high as that for 3D, and if you are looking at, say, loco frames for generating dxf files for cutting, then 2D might well satisfy your needs. Personally, I've gone 3D because I want to recreate the model I am building from the original 2D drawings. I find having a full 3D model on screen that I can pan and zoom gives me so much more insight into the finished item - but that's a personal view and I know that others strongly disagree. But then, I've spent more than 50 years playing with computers and it has left me with the attitude that if a computer can do it, why should I worry my pretty little head over it when I can concentrate on more significant things?

[racinjason]

The other advantage with 3D is you can draw a sheet metal parts with folds including then flatten the part to make the DXF file without guessing how much material to leave or remove for the fold.
Cheers Jason.

[johnd]

Been using the MEW offer of 6 months free use of Alibre Atom 3D, and the free training manual to learn.
Excellent program to start with.
After 6 months i can then make a decision based on a bit of user knowledge.

[Roger]

Personally I'd jump straight into Fusion360. It's not especially hard to learn, and it will do everything you ever imagined you might find useful. I have a paid version of Alibre Design, and it's poor compared to Fusion360.
It doesn't matter if you need full 3D modelling or not. The key thing is that once you create the 3D model, which is pretty simple and not that different to 2D drafting anyway, you can ask it to generate any views from any angle. Ok, you may have to place dimensions to make a neat job, but it will always reflect correct views of the model. You change the model, and the drawings change to suit. What's not to like?

[jon38r80]

I found Fusion 360 a bit odd to start with having been using Autocad for work but once you get over preconceived ideas of how it should work I agree with Roger its pretty easy, It must be if I can use it. there are plenty of tutorials around on youtube and their own . I have to say I found their tutorials a bit insulting but then I dont have much patience.

[johnd]

Roger,

As a beginner I’m interested in your views in regard to Alibre.
I was going to start using Fusion 360 when the whole issue of the reduction of functionality started.
My issue with that was not that i could not do what i needed to do at that time but that in the future, on the whim of the management, they could reduce or stop some other more important functions.
They did it once and could easily do it again.
I have had that happen before on other programs, the cost of Fusion 360 full licence is a non starter for me.
Therefore i started looking for a program that i could purchase and own on a one off payment, thus when 6 months free Alibre came available, it seemed too good to miss.
Up to now it has performed faultlessly during the training exercises and on the start of the Crampton model that i have posted.
What i am interested is your views on what is missing in Alibre, this would help me decide what to do in a few months time when the trial is finished.
Thanks
John

[Roger]

Jun 25, 2021 12:21:36 GMT johnd said:

Roger,

As a beginner I’m interested in your views in regard to Alibre.
I was going to start using Fusion 360 when the whole issue of the reduction of functionality started.
My issue with that was not that i could not do what i needed to do at that time but that in the future, on the whim of the management, they could reduce or stop some other more important functions.
They did it once and could easily do it again.
I have had that happen before on other programs, the cost of Fusion 360 full licence is a non starter for me.
Therefore i started looking for a program that i could purchase and own on a one off payment, thus when 6 months free Alibre came available, it seemed too good to miss.
Up to now it has performed faultlessly during the training exercises and on the start of the Crampton model that i have posted.
What i am interested is your views on what is missing in Alibre, this would help me decide what to do in a few months time when the trial is finished.
Thanks
John

Hi John,
Beware all Software from any source, it will morph into something more expensive. I had my Alibre licence 'upgraded' at some point, and ended up paying a lot more. Alibre has had a very chequered past, with it being bought out by another company, renamed Geomagic Design, and then bought back by Alibre. During that process, the Licensing changed again, and without upgrading, I wouldn't have been able to continue using it.

Alibre is buggy in my opinion, and I've told them on many occasions what some of those are. The memory management is hopeless, causing issues when you have large assemblies, and crashing when you have too many files open. Like all "maintenance" you pay, you're just funding their future development of features you don't need, while ignoring the bugs you actually want fixed! Frankly I'm not impressed, and I only use it because I have to.

The biggest single issue with Alibre is that it doesn't have an integrated native CAM environment. That means you have to buy an additional license from Mecsoft if you want that, and it's expensive. I've not upgraded either of my software versions for several years now, they do what I need. However, sooner or later the crunch will come and it will cost at least £1000 to get it up to date. That's way too much when you see what you get from Fusion360.

My advice would be to ditch Alibre and go to Fusion360 before you get too much on there to change over like me. Having all of the software supplied by one company is essential in my opinion. whenever there's an issue, they play pass the parcel as to who's problem it is. Fusion360 may have features turned on and off over time. However, I think this is only to stop people using it commercially, while claiming to be only using it for hobby purposes. Limiting the number of local jobs and suppressing automatic tool changes aren't really a big deal.

Alibre isn't a very well thought out package when it comes to assemblies. It's not an integrated environment, instead using the Windows filing system with some other idents added inside the individual part files. It is therefore easy to break it and get bizarre results. For example, if you copy and paste a part, then rename it, you will end up in a mess if you then add those parts to an assembly. That's because they have a copied ident that needs to be unique, but is now shared by two different parts. Changing one, can change the other too. Frankly, it's a mess. It's also painfully slow when you get large assemblies, and it will crash from time to time.

All software is a moving target, there's no way to insulate yourself from the whims of their suppliers. Sooner or later you will get caught out, however you go about it. If you buy it, you'll find that the licensing doesn't work any more, or it won't work with the latest Windows version. You can try to keep a stable situation for some time, but in the end, something always forces you to upgrade, even though you're happy with what you have already.

[John Baguley]

Like Roger, I use Alibre Design and have been using it since 2010. My latest version is the Geomagic one that I bought in 2014. It does have a few problems and crashes on large assemblies after a time. I find it best to shut it down and restart it after you have been using it for a time before it has chance to crash on it's own. I think it still has a problem with it hogging memory until it finally runs out. Shutting it down clears the memory and it's fine again for a bit.

I also found it very slow, especially on large assemblies when trying to rotate the views, but I recently rebuilt my computer with a new motherboard and it's fine now. I think the performance of the graphic card has a lot to do with it.

The main thing that I find frustrating, and this may be true of other packages, is that I can't produce a decent quality image e.g. jpeg from what's on the screen for use on my website etc. They are always very low resolution. The basic Alibre does not have an 'export to jpeg' option and you have to use a virtual printer to produce the image. I've tried several different virtual printers and none of them work very well. I think they all just basically take a screenshot and produce the image from that?

I did download Fusion360 some time ago and had a bit of a play with it but, to be honest, I don't want to spend the time having to learn a new software so I'll stick with Alibre as it does everything that I need and I can use it blindfolded after all this time.

This is the latest project - a 2½" gauge Lynton and Barnstaple 'LYD' that I'm designing for the N25GA. You can see that the image is not brilliant quality.

If anyone knows a better way of producing images please let me know!

John

[Roger]

Hi John,
I wonder if the low resolution you're seeing is because you're using the default number of facets? If you go into the preferences, you can set that to the maximum which looks much better. I had to do this because I was seeing the facets on the machined parts, it clearly uses the same controls for the smoothness of that output too.

I just zoom in on the image, press Print Screen and paste the whole desktop into Paint. Then I crop the image and save it as a jpg. The resolution done that way is pretty good in my opinion.

[John Baguley]

Thanks Roger, I'll give that a try. It's something I had not thought of.

John

[92220]

When my Autocad-2004 worked (!!), up to around 2010, the 3D was really quick, and easy, to learn and use, especially if you were a model engineer. There were 2 options in the program. One was surface modelling, like is used for most programs these days, which, at the time, I couldn't be bothered to learn as it was not necessary, having the solid modelling available. The other, which I did all my drawing as a contract design draughtsman with, was 'solid modelling'. The solid modelling was almost instantly "learnable". It was made up of all the solid shapes like cylinders, spheres, cubes, pyramids etc. All you had to do was pick the shape and specify the size. It could then be placed in the position you wanted, and rotated all ways to line up, or lining up angles, and contact points, could be specified for accurate positioning. To make up a drawing all you had to do was take various solids that were similar to the parts you wanted to draw, and add other shapes to represent all the other shapes you wanted to draw, like a pyramid on top of a cylinder to give a pointed end to the cylinder, standing on a cube. These could then be either joined or subtracted to either make a larger shaped solid, combining the multiple shapes, into one complicated solid, or subtracting one part from the other. To work out what was needed for the drawing, all you had to do was think how you could machine away at a shape, or say, solder a piece on, to make a single odd shaped lump. I was able to do all my drawing in 3D and then rotate the item to be square on the the computer screen, and then click a key and the program provided a standard third angle projection drawing, from the 3D model. It could also be automatically dimensioned. Unfortunately they seem to have moved away from the solid modelling, to surface modelling, which is much harder to pick up that the solid modelling. When my Acad2004 was moved to a new computer, after the first one packed up, it was after Autodesk decided to put a limit on when they would provide authorisation codes for older software, so I was never able to get it up and running again. As I knew Autocad I bought an AutocadLT which is Autocad without the 3D function. Does anyone know af any 3D software that is solid modelling, like the old Autocad? I'd like to get back into 3D drawing, but am too far gone to learn Fusion360 or the other surface modelling programs. I've tried, but can't get my old solid modelling out of my head!! I know I don't need 3D for the amount of drawing I still have to do, but it would be nice to be able to do it again. Any suggestions?

Bob.

[kipford]

Bob
Fusion 360, Alibre, Solid Edge, Solidworks, Catia (Aerospace and Automotive leading player which I use) etc etc are all 'Solid Modellers' the same as you were used to, where the solid is derived from primitives (cylinders etc), shapes derived from 2D sketches or using surfaces. All solids are formed from surfaces, except it happens mainly hidden in the background. They all work in a similar but different way, so you understand the philosophy, it will just be a matter of working out which commands do what you are used to. Give it a go.
Dave

[johnd]

Bob,
If you want to just try and use a recent 3D programme the Alibre Atom 6 month trial through MEW is still available.
Thats what i am using to draw the Crampton, see seperate post.
When 6 months are up I can decide what to do. Software is about £200 one off payment.