Maid of Kent slipping

[WetHeader]

Hi all,

I've been sorting out a friend of mines maid of kent, which has been converted to a southern L1. I have rectified all the faults with it, however I can't seem to stop it from picking its feet up!

I have adjusted the suspension, clean the wheels and someone even suggested slightly filing them. I was just wondering if anyone else has had similar problems and have been able to come up with some solutions!

Many thanks

[waggy]

A friend of mine had a problem with a 4-4-0 Schools class slipping, various adjustments made including extra weight under the cab, made little difference! Eventually he found the problem, none of the driving wheels were the same diameter. The difference was only a few thou but enough to make one slip which as they are mechanically coupled the other three followed suit. Turning the treads to equal diameters cured the slipping.

Hope this helps.

Waggy.

[WetHeader]

Thanks Waggy, I'll look into that.

I forgot to mention that when my friend first bought the engine, it never used to slip so could it be something really simple that is causing the problems?

[turbominij]

Silly suggestions.. but
broken/week spring?

Axle box binding ?

Both Could cause un even loading and start a slip??

[44767]

I used to own a very nicely built Maid of Kent and it was used to haul passengers on our track with gradients up to 1:50, just one ride car with me and three children or me and two adults. When I purchased it, I did query why the left rear corner of the cab roof's paint showed signs of wear. It turned out the builder used to apply a little pressure on it with his hand to stop it slipping going up the hill! It was a capable engine without the extra weight and I did notice it was far more likely to slip if the boiler pressure was too high, no matter where the regulator was. It was far happier chugging up the hill with only 30-60 psi than if the max (90 psi) was used.

I hope this may help.

Mike

[ettingtonliam]

Maybe your restoration has improved things so much that the loco can't handle the power its now capable of producing without slipping? Try running it at a lower pressure.

[JonL]

Judicious use of the reverser may help.

[jma1009]

I think that the design of valve gear on this loco ought to be something mentioned. There are 3 possibilities that I know of for the inside cylinder ‘Maid of Kent’.

A loco with good valve gear and valve gear setting is going to be far more manageable.

That said, I can only recall driving 2 of this type, and I don’t remember them slipping. I would certainly check the precise driving wheel diameters and check the springing via the lever and cigarette paper method with a salter weight balance I have used, or the more involved methods used by others on here.

Cheers,
Julian

[johan]

This slipping, it that with a trolley attached? If so, maybe check if that trolley isn't disturbing the weight balance on the drivers. I have seen this a few times (and provoked it) when using a link between the engine and trolley that isn't "flexible" enough. You then get that everything seems ok when just sitting there but once the driver gets on the trolley, it pushes on the tail of the engine and makes the front rise.

[jma1009]

Maid of Kent is quite a big tender loco, and I would be surprised if a driver’s trolley connection to the tender would cause any issues with the adhesive weight of the driving wheels on the track.

Percy Woods won IMLEC with a Maid of Kent. You certainly need to carry out a weight distribution on all the wheels of the engine (it’s a 4-4-0 tender loco). I seem to recall that the example I drove in public passenger hauling had the rear dragbox of the loco filled with lead.

There is also a common error that to increase the spring pressure on the driving wheels you screw down on the nuts underneath the springs. All you actually do is shift the driving wheels up a bit. They might then bind in the hornstays that haven’t worn, or provide no further upward movement of the axle boxes to accommodate the vagaries of the track. It will also shift the centre of balance more towards the front bogie.

[JonL]

Im interested in the cigarette paper test, I've not heard of that before? Sounds like the sort of think I could manage. I've been overwhelmed by previous techniques.

[jma1009]

Jul 3, 2024 17:26:36 GMT JonL said:

Im interested in the cigarette paper test, I've not heard of that before? Sounds like the sort of think I could manage. I've been overwhelmed by previous techniques.

I’ve described this many years ago on here.

I always did this on the dining room table with the leafs folded down and the loco on a bit of display track on a board. You have a say 2 feet length of sturdy bar and a fulcrum point near the end to the tyre tread, and a salter spring balance at the extremity the other end. A bit of maths provides the leverage to enable the salter spring balance measurement to be calculated on the application.

You put a bit of cigarette paper under each tyre on the rail (display track in my case). Apply the lever by pulling on the salter spring balance and note the reading when the cigarette paper can be slid out. Calculate the results and repeat for all wheels.

I hasten to add this is nothing I claim credit for as it was well known and described many years ago in ME and possibly the SMEE journals.

Roger of Speedy fame and others have described much more elaborate electronic methods in more recent years. I am a bit ‘old school’.

The one Maid of Kent I drove quite regularly when a University student in Cardiff was Ron Bignall’s LMS variant with outside cylinders. This is going back to 1985 on onwards. I don’t remember any slipping issues with 3 passengers trollies behind full of punters. The Highfield Road site of what was then the Whitchurch and District MES had quite moderate gradients and we had excellent steam coal in those days.

I certainly did the lever bar and salter weight balance and cigarette paper test on “The Dean” and “Linda”.

[suctionhose]

Here is what Julian describes happening in Fullsize!

[JonL]

Jul 3, 2024 21:52:35 GMT jma1009 said:

Jul 3, 2024 17:26:36 GMT JonL said:

Im interested in the cigarette paper test, I've not heard of that before? Sounds like the sort of think I could manage. I've been overwhelmed by previous techniques.

I’ve described this many years ago on here.

I always did this on the dining room table with the leafs folded down and the loco on a bit of display track on a board. You have a say 2 feet length of sturdy bar and a fulcrum point near the end to the tyre tread, and a salter spring balance at the extremity the other end. A bit of maths provides the leverage to enable the salter spring balance measurement to be calculated on the application.

You put a bit of cigarette paper under each tyre on the rail (display track in my case). Apply the lever by pulling on the salter spring balance and note the reading when the cigarette paper can be slid out. Calculate the results and repeat for all wheels.

I hasten to add this is nothing I claim credit for as it was well known and described many years ago in ME and possibly the SMEE journals.

Roger of Speedy fame and others have described much more elaborate electronic methods in more recent years. I am a bit ‘old school’.

The one Maid of Kent I drove quite regularly when a University student in Cardiff was Ron Bignall’s LMS variant with outside cylinders. This is going back to 1985 on onwards. I don’t remember any slipping issues with 3 passengers trollies behind full of punters. The Highfield Road site of what was then the Whitchurch and District MES had quite moderate gradients and we had excellent steam coal in those days.

I certainly did the lever bar and salter weight balance and cigarette paper test on “The Dean” and “Linda”.

Excellent, many thanks.

[johan]

Jul 3, 2024 22:54:51 GMT suctionhose said:

Here is what Julian describes happening in Fullsize!

Wonderful photo! Thanks for that.

[suctionhose]

Jul 4, 2024 17:50:52 GMT johan said:

Jul 3, 2024 22:54:51 GMT suctionhose said:

Here is what Julian describes happening in Fullsize!

Wonderful photo! Thanks for that.

Yes it is a wonderful photo, probably captured sometime around 1915(?) on a glass plate, inside a workshop at final assembly stage. The focus, depth of field and absence of harsh light has produced a magnificent image. Nowadays, it's available digitally as a 15Mb file. You can zoom in and see shims and slots in screw heads... an incredible resource for building a model!

[WetHeader]

Hi all,

Thanks to your advice. I'm now at another saga! My friend was driving the loco at the club when the beats sounded really off. Inspection found that one of the eccentrics has come loose on the crank axle.

The eccentric has two grub screws, one slotted and one Allan head. Both the heads are completely buggered so was just wondering the best approach was? Do I drill out and re tap or just drill a new hole for another grub screw?

[chris vine]

That is tricky!

However, with messed up screw heads, it is often possible to remove them with a bit of persistence:
Both screws will probably be covered in oil, so rust shouldn't make it impossible
Given that they have slipped, maybe they are not too tight...

The slotted screw is probably soft so a sacrificial screwdriver might be tapped into the soft end and then maybe tapping with small hammer while applying turning force might shift it. Sometimes turning one way and then the other helps. Also penetrating oil too.

For the Allen head, maybe a slightly larger key can be ground down into a taper which can, again, be tapped into place and turned while tapping. For a slightly larger key, maybe metric or imperial (whichever the screw isn't) will provide a suitable starting tool.

It is surprising how often an impossible screw can be removed.
My favourite is tapping with a small hammer, many times, and then trying again. The tapping helps any penetrating oil to move down into the threads. The same with trying to turn a microscopic amount. Then more tapping!!

Hope this helps,
Chris.

[RGR 60130]

A Torx bit can sometimes be bashed into a messed up Allen head. The 1/4" hex drive type for use with a socket set lend themselves to this rather than the right angled type.

Reg

[chris vine]

A cunning suggestion which I will lock away for future disasters!!
Chris.