14XX Tank Loco

[mott]

There are problems reported on the assembling of the A4s and Britannias but what about this tank loco. There is a claim on the web site that one runs regularly - any experiences/comments for a potential purchaser?
Mott

[Garry]

Hello Mott, I know one of our club members has one of the first 1400's and after 4 or 5 years it still is not running. He has done a lot of extra work on it and I think he might have it running on air. I know his instructions had the valve timing out by 180 degrees but this might have been changed since. I also know one fault was that piston rods were wrong length similar to mine. Another members father also had one but I dont know where he is upto with it. About a year ago he had stopped trying to build it for a while. Please note these were original Winson ones and I think Modelworks has modified them but in my experience there were/is still a lot of reworking/modification to get a running loco no matter who supplied the parts. I am very happy with the outcome of my loco but not from the fact that at the price I paid parts did not fit as expected.

Garry

[mott]

Depressing this view from Garry. They say they have only 3 left out of the latest batch of 65 kits. I wonder where the kits have all gone and how the assembly is going. Maybe this silent majority are content with their kits and they will all become runners, but what you say certainly gives me "pause for thought" Mott.

[jont]

I am one of the customers for the 14XX. However, progress is slow, not through any fault of Modelworks I might add. I have a rolling chassis with cylinders assembled, and I am currently fitting the valve gear. I want to get everything working on air, and then strip and paint before proceeding further. I hope there are no major problems on the horizon. I can only say that Modelworks have despatched all kits more or less on time, neatly packed and labelled, with good instructions. The boiler looks to be of high quality and has the Modelworks hydraulic test certificate. I think you have to be prepared to do some filing and fitting on a kit like this. My reason for purchasing was to make/assemble something in a reasonable period of time. The alternative would be to buy a second-hand loco from a reputable source; making from scratch is not an option for me at the moment due to working for a living, the curse of the model engineer!

[mott]

Hi Jontimpany, Thanks for your comments. Doing alterations with handtools is no problem or lathe work though my skill level would not allow for starting from scratch with castings even though I have the time. Do you know of any 14XX which are runners, apart from Garry's. I was rather thinking of a 12 month time scale including painting. You just get the vibes that there are a lot of Modelwork locos out there but not many having reached the running stage.Mott

[Garry]

Hello Mott, my runner is an A4 not a 14xx. I have seen about 6 Winson / Modelworks locos running although each one had been heavily modified to do so. The list includes A3, Couple of Brits and 9F's. I have not seen a 1400 run but have heard of a couple. As you say there are a lot of loco kits around but how many are finiished I dont know. Good luck with yours, if you have a lot of free time it should be pretty quick to build but I suspect you will need to do some work on it which might invole machinery.
Garry

[steamjohn248]

Hi Mott

I'm in contact with with a number of Baldwin builders
(one of Winsons early efforts) Two are running out of I believe ten sold. Ours was the 'control' model and as such could never have run and has undergone massive modification. At least one other got as far as running on air and found the valve gear totally out of kilter. I think the general consensus is you get a lot of metal for your money but you have to be prepared to throw a lot of it away. When all is said and done its a quicker way to get yourself an engine but you need to be a model engineer (with all the gear to go with it) before you start, a file and a couple of spanners and the kitchen table is not enough.

Steamjohn.

[Tedron]

Hi guys
I have been a lurker for too long so here goes.
I bought a 14xx back in the days of Winson it is their mk2 version. It took me 5 years to build it, and ever since then I have been slowly rectifying and replacing many of the components.
I have had it running on air quite well but for the fact that the lubricator would not work, I replaced it whith a displacement lubricator. I took it to our club for its steam test, and once the safety valve lifted it promtly emtied the boiler, " Panic Panic" I droped the fire and yet another modification!! and another- and another - and another and so on we toil. And it still has'nt done a circiut of our track. I must take first prize for persiverence. I will add at this point that I have witnessed that Peter Thomas has run his 14xx at our track and it runs quite well. Ted

[Phil Sutton]

Hi.I'm still struggling on with a Winson mk 2 1400.which has run on air,and is 90% complete.It is fairly hard going,and I have a background in engineering,so those who haven't,have had a real hard time of it.
The reason why there are no running Modelworks 1400s out ther is that the run is only up to kit 8 0r 9.A friend of mine is building one and it is going together really well,and his has also run on air.So fear not,all will come right at the end.

Phil

[mott]

Thanks for all the contributions about the 14XX tank. I am on balance mildly encouraged. There certainly seems less trouble with this loco than the others and Modelworks have knocked out quite a large number. I'm a bit tense about managing inside cylinders but shall see. I certainly couldn't start to machine a 5" gauge loco from rough castings so other than buying a second hand with attendent risks there is no alternative. Is anyone publishing a diary on construction progress with the 14XX? Mott

[mott]

I see that the 14XX kit uses O rings for the piston rings. I wonder what sort of life you can expect from them? I would have thought cast iron or PTFE would have been better. Mott

[Phil Sutton]

If the cylinder bore is highly polished,then O ring life is fairly reasonable,or so I am led to believe,any roughness,and they will wear out in no time.I believe some winson builders have replaced the O rings with piston rings,but you'll need a lathe to do it.
There is a wison/modelworks site available on

www.fraserker.com/winson

which you may find of some interest.

Phil

[mott]

Phil, Thanks , been there, got the tea shirt!! I just live in hope that Modelworks have ironed out the problems. The signs from others are reasonably promising. I will explore Reeves cast iron rings as a possible and I haven't yet had a good look at the cylinders.Mott.

[Phil Sutton]

Hi Mott.My cylinders were pretty smooth any way,but as yet,I havn't steamed my loco.It looks as if it is fairly simple to extract the piston heads from the cylinders as and when replacement rings are necessary,and as long as there is plenty of oil coming through I am sure that O rings will last ok.Plenty of other people use O rings,and I am sure that if they had been available at the time even LBSC would have used them,as he liked to keep things simple.
It is, of course,easy enough to use set of hones to smooth out the cylinders if they are a bit rough,and may be easier then trying to machine up and fit new c.i.rings.
I must try and dig out my camera and post a few photos.

Phil

[peteT]

Hopefully of some encouragement to folk. My 1400 - the first to run back in 1999 and winner of a cup at Harrogate the weekend Winson went under - is still performing well. A first series loco, steamed within 6 days of the last kit arriving, has passed its recurrent boiler hydraulic retests without even having to blank anything off (i.e. the Winson gas valve regulator still seals reasonably and the slightly modified Winson fittings all stand the pressure). Loco is running with cast iron rings these days, after proving to Winson the importance of reasonable bore finish if they wanted to use O rings. Nought wrong with the O rings for a lightly used engine, but if you do upgrade to iron rings it becomes especially imporant to oil up properly when you put it away. Not had to do much maintenance on the loco other than rebush a few bits here and there where Winson brass was a bit soft. Haven't had the tanks off since I painted it in Jan 2000 and thanks to the careful polishing of the rod, the feed pump still works, although when the loco has been out of action for a few weeks I generally have to give the pump body a tap to free the balls. The little loco has even stood in for the failed club Simplex when we had visitors from the Borough Council on one occasion. At the end of the day, even with the valve mods I made, the 1400 is not a great load puller, but rather a pretty little engine which goes.

Pete Thomas

[tbroyd]

I am a builder of the current Modelworks 1400 kit and have not found a single problem with it. Only 10 of the 12 kits have so far been supplied so none are runners yet but I would expect to see reports of some running soon after the last kit is supplied in July. The components have required hand finishing as they say. I am assembling mine but do not have a lathe set up or fancy workshop. I would have every confidence in recommending the 1400 kit. Much of the comment on Modelworks relates to Winson kits. There used to be endless discussion on websites after each winson kit for the 1400 was supplied and what problems they had (parts not fitting or not lining up etc). There has been no such discussion with the Modelworks kit for a reason - the parts they supply do fit. I have no connection with Modelworks but feel it is about time that Modelworks kits were discussed separately from Winson kits as from experience I know they are very different!

[Garry]

Hi, I am pleased someone has got what the advert says and parts do screw together without the need for machinery and replacement parts, but, I cannot agree with your comments about all Modelworks kits. The first 3 kits for my A4 were Winson and after that my money was paid to Modelworks who cashed the cheques. Modelworks sent all the remaining 15 kits. Modelworks had their name on the instructions and parts labels so Modelworks were responsible for my kits NOT WINSON and parts of them were terrible. Most of the time they did not respond to letters and when they sent replacement parts they were wrong so please dont tell me there is nothing wrong with them. Please dont say they were selling off Winson parts as 1, Modelworks took my money etc it was up to them to ensure they supplied GOOD and FIT FOR PURPOSE PARTS, and 2, the body shell took nearly 2 years to arrive AFTER my cheque was cashed so they made it NOT WINSON and it also was terrible, so much so I am making a new shell myself. I will say Modelworks gave me some brass sheet to do this. My A4 will be at Harrogate and some of the problems cannot be seen but you can see how much material was removed to allow the 2:1 levers to work without fouling other parts. It might have the original roof on that shows how far out the safety valves are, they did supply a second roof but this was exactly the same but thinner material. This was not a one off. I have a second loco with most parts having the Modelworks name all over them but the quality is still the same and they would not supply me with the boiler certificate after several letters including one to a Director, and this is in the last 2 months. Happily the boiler passed it hydraulic test last week at 200psi so it should be okay, so, at the moment I cannot say everything is okay with them.

Garry

[tbroyd]

I have read your comments previously and know that there have been problems with winson or part winson/ part modelworks kits. This topic was started with regards to a Modelworks loco kit. My point is that I do not think that the same problems exist with kits that have been supplied & manufactured by Modelworks from Kit 1. You have never mentioned any experience of such a kit? I have purchased 3 such kits and have had no problems with regard to quality, a couple of missing parts have been sent by return of post without problem (Modelworks staff are always very helpful when phoned or when I have visited). I also have a part Winson, part Modelworks engine so I do have a comparison. Perhaps Modelworks should not have proceeded with the A4 if the design was flawed but that really is a different topic. I saw at a recent show that Modelworks were proposing some different loco designs and I feel that would benefit them to move away from designs that Winson also produced.

[Garry]

I agree I have not had a Modelworks kit from kit 1 but I have spoken to two people who have. They both own the Black 5 and have had quite a few problems. Both have now completed them WITH NECESSARY modifications, one example, their piston rods were also the wrong lengths and both these people along with someone else they know cannot get the loco to steam properly. When I was at Ruddington a couple of years ago the only loco that would NOT run was Modelworks own 5700 which was a Modelworks loco from kit 1 so there are two examples that I know of. With reference to the Black 5 there was a problem with the regulator handle which could have resulted in the loco running without being able to close the regulator and one of these people took the parts to Donnington and the Modelworks staff could not fit it on their control model and could not give any help as to what to do so they both made their own. One of these gentlemen was at the factory to discuss problems when someone brought in all his Black 5 kits and asked for his money back. With reference to the personel some people do get a response and others dont, I am one that doesn't.

Garry

[nmoody57]

Hello to all 1400 builders.
I have a running 1400 which is steamed fairly regularly, I must confess that I did not build this one but it was built by a memner of our club. It was a first series Winson and the builder made many trips to the factory to get things ironed out. Anyway he plodded on and got it finished.
I bought it from him last year 2004 and after a boiler test and some driving instruction I did manage to master the little blighter.
A brief sumary is: Steaming is quite temperamental, keeping the fire and water right is a work of art, It is a little steam hungry but that my be the valve settings, a few bits have fallen off, but all have gone back on, but on the whole when it runs it will stomp away very well, with one of our club coaches on the back, it pulls up to six kids or two adults with children.
I will try to attached a photo to show it in action.
It has been great fun to drive and is passing the time until I can finish my Maid of Kent.
Nigel