milling machines

[tim]

hi all
I'm looking at getting a warco micro mill for my workshop just to help me make small steam engines for model boats,would this mill be the right tool for the job or do i need a bigger one, any comments/ideas welcome
cheers
tim

[steam4ian]

G'day Tim

Looks nice if you want a small machine; Warco seem to be better quality than some. Regarding the micro mill, I note that you only have one gear ratio and only a 150W motor. IMHO this is too weak. However Warco's price is about half that of the next size larger.

I have the Sieg version of the mini mill and I am quite happy with it. It is better than the 7x12 mini-lathe; doesn't need so much fettling.

Take my advice, what ever you get will show that you should have bought something larger.

Try other suppliers to see if you can get a better deal on the mini mill. For indication in Oz I got my mini mill for AUD750 equivalent to UKP300.

Regards
Ian

[paul]

Ian, in rip-off-Britain the micro is £275 UKP and the mini is £455.

Mind you we are a little further from China than you

[baggo]

Hi Tim,

Chester UK do the same model (different name) for £239 inc. delivery. Arc Euro do the long table version for £255 plus £25 delivery.

I bought one a couple of years ago when I was going to just build O gauge locos but have since moved on to bigger stuff (as you do!) so it's really a bit small for me now.
I was a bit disappointed with it when I first started using it as it wouldn't mill anything without serious chatter but since then I've stripped it and set it up properly and I am now pleasantly surprised at what it can do. I'm using it to carry out some very substantial milling on a Kennet tool and cutter grinder that I'm building and I'm really pushing it to the limit I think. However, by using collets to hold the cutters (rather than holding them in the drill chuck), locking all the slides etc and not going ott with the cuts it's coped quite well. It's certainly impressed me.
The main problem with it seems to be the square section column which tends to twist under heavy loads but as mentioned, I am abusing it!
If you have a look at the equipment section of my website (under Kennet) there's some photos of it in action.

John

[ron]

Tim
I've the slightly bigger Warco mill, the ZX 15, it cost me about £550 I think, it's not perfect but it's pretty good value for money and copes very well with any model engineering size work I've done on it.
Ron

[Noddy]

He's a happy fella, John is.

He got a nice mill as well...
Keith

[circlip]

Oh dear,drjohn, milling machines again,but I got the flak jacket on this time. Tim, if you think that the miller you have specified is going to suit your immediate/future needs, go for it, better still if you can get a good second hand one. My "Miller" is a vertical head fitted to my Maximat V10 lathe. Yes I know everybody, it isn't a SERIOUS milling machine, but it will do EVERYTHING I need to do in milling. Done plastics to titanium with it, but I let it CUT, I don't try to CLEAVE. If you want the ULTIMATE all round workshop mill, go for a BRIDGEPORT turret mill,(you'll need a tall space for that), but you'll NEVER use it to its FULL capabilities. Understand the limitations of what your using and twiddle accordingly.

[tim]

hi all
thanks for all the points you have bought up,i have looked at the other makes but i do have a warco lathe and very happy with it,I'm abit nervous about having to strip it down before using it ,so more questions will be on the way after the purchase.
cheers tim

[havoc]

That Warco is just as chinese as those that are sold as chinese.

I got one of these: www.buitelaar.nl/comasy/templates/product.aspx?contentid=237&productid=2563 They make no secret of it that those are chinese mills, the shop imports them directly under their own name.

Now, go take a look at this one: www.buitelaar.nl/comasy/templates/product.aspx?contentid=237&productid=2821
And then look at the Warco WM-18: www.warco.co.uk/shop.asp?catid=40&ProdId=923#923

Spot the differences (colour doesn't count)...

(I regret the larger version wasn't available when I bought mine)

[circlip]

If you haven't committed yourself yet Tim, have a look at www.mini-lathe.com there's a link to mills as well, also for everyone else, bits of tooling are interesting, drill regrinding.

[Richmond]

Chipping my two pence worth in ..... and echoing some of the comments above

Chinese mills and lathes are much of a muchness to me......all follow same basic desgn and manufacture processes in China in the same or similar factories. What makes some "better" than others in the UK are the importers "controls" on quality.

I have owned a Chester Champion and a Model B lathe, both when I was just starting in the hobby.......they were both ditched within a year..... I hated the "Bolt On" chucks in the smaller lathes", the lack of a "Back Gear" on the mill, and the lack of accuracy. Personal choice and the offer of a 2nd hand Raglan lathe and a Centec 2A helped here. Much more rigid, sturdy, and finished a lot better too !

I am led to beleive that both Warco and Chester UK have family links / relatives in the factories ensuring consistency, although this is heresay.

Arc Euro offer a chargeable "pre delivery inspection" service. Personally I dont like the idea of this......seems a bit like buying a new car, and then asking the dealer to make it fit for the road !?!

I thought "fit for purpose" was the Trading Standards watchword these days. Although with specialised "niche" equipment, how can one decide or arbitrate FFP ?

Rigidity, accuracy, and buying oversize would always be my advice. I do check things like wear, and parallelism in a bed, and I do take a micrometer and a DTI with me when buying 2nd hand equipment. If the seller objectsto the checks, then I view it as a lack of confidence in what is being sold, and hence walk away, or haggle harder to get the price down.

In life we get precious little time in the workshop, and having to take smaller and slower cuts because the machine might not handle it is a pain, well certainly to me. Yes, patience is a virtue, but not when completing everyday workshop tasks. I know people have to buy on a budget, but hold out for a deal, or call more people, put feelers out on the net, or ask around at the local clubs. The more effort you put into the purchase, the more info, and hence a better decision can be made, and the happier you will be when the machine is in use ;D

Merry Xmas,

Keith

[abby]

Does anyone have any experience with this company's products ?
www.optimum-maschinen.de/produkte/fraesmaschinen/bf20vario/index.html
My local tool importer stocks them , they seem to be very well made and at £845 , a lot less than the Warco ! Still of Chinese origin though , with German quality control. They do have a CNC kit with ball screws and steppers , 4th axis etc.
I am finding it hard to part with over a £1000 for a second hand Centec or similar that has already been retired from industry for several years.

[havoc]

You have to compare same with same. If you compare the Warco WM18 with the Opti BF20, then you are comparing a machine with a MC3 to one with an MC2. And the table is 50% larger etc.

The BF20 is what I have, but I paid it almost 300 euro less. Not prepared for CNC if that makes a difference.

[abby]

Havoc please give your opinion on the BF20 as I am thinking of buying one if I can get a deal with the importer.

[havoc]

Haven't used it very much (only got it a few months), but until now I'm happy. Points I'm not so happy with:
- I would have liked a slot more in the table
- the locking handles for the table are badly placed (the left-right ones are in the way when you travel front-back and those for the front-back are hard to reach under the table). Most likely because it is a rather small machine.
- even on its stand it is low and only comfortable when sitting on a chair
- if I lock the mill spindle downward movement then I see 0.02mm movement on the dial. But I don't worry about that, any model plan that asks for those tolerances needs a redesign.

The MC2 means you're limited to ER25 collets.

I use it for gauge 1 sized locs and it is plenty for that. Several members at our club have one, haven't heard about problems yet.

flimsy!

Well I'm sure there is better around. But you have to be able:
- to pay for it
- have space for it
- be able to handle it inside

[abby]

Many thanks for the opinion , I am looking for a small, precision miller and would love any one of the many beautiful Swiss instrument makers machines that are available but cannot justify spending the sort of money these command.

[havoc]

I found out another minor issue with the BF20 yesterday: there is a swarf-guard at the vertical column. It is a kind of bellow. Now if you want to work right on the table with a collet and a short mill, then the bellow makes that you cannot lower the head very close. So you have to work with the spindle extended. Probably this can be adjusted or altered. Must take a look one day.

Yes, it is tempting to buy one of those faboulous machines. I also longed for a larger heavier lathe. Until I stood next to one... The beast was 800kg (he guessed, looked more to me), I couldn't lift the 3 jaw and any accesory would have costed a lot and be ordered. So I said *@!! it and bought a smaller one. No problems finding accesories for it, they are affordable and it just works fine.

I mean, being able to work to 0.0001mm is impressive, but I still have to find the first model engineering plan with tolerances on it. I have designed stuff for production and one very important thing was that if you rely on very close tolerances you have a problem sooner than later. You need to design from start with makability (is that a word?) in mind.

[abby]

Strangely enough lathes are easy to obtain at sensible prices , my neighbor just bought a very clean Colchester Bantam for 400 quid, but like you say spares are expensive, a new pair of head stock bearings is more than he paid for the machine. For me I am quite satisfied to work to a thou , even if I have to polish the last bit off.
I call 0.001 of an inch a thou , what do you call 0.01 of a millimeter ? If you don't have simple words for small measurements i.e gnats-cock or smidge' then we should stick with imperial LOL!

[AndrewP]

Well, 0.001 of a millimeter would be a micrometer which might get confusing, if you want to start a campaign how about a bugsometer or naffometer.
Should only take about 20 years to get the suggestion through committees and peer review.

See www.gordonengland.co.uk/conversion/siprefix.htm for more than you ever wanted to know.

[Noddy]

Happy new year

agatehouse said:

Well, 0.001 of a millimeter would be a micrometer

or a micron?

Keith