Model Engineer demographic

[John Wood]

What a can of worms this topic has opened up!

I have been interested in model engineering most of my life but the effort required in building and running a career plus a wife family and home has meant that I simply have not had sufficient time or money to be able to embrace what really is a time consuming (and fairly expensive) hobby. Now I too am looking towards retirement, the last child is at Uni and I can see my way clear to indulging myself. Surely this is typical of many?

Steady on now! Putting ME in pdf form on the computer may be useful for storage etc but what about being able to sit down, on a quiet winters day, or on holiday with a pile of magazines and blissfully lose oneself in them. If I had to go to a computer each time I wanted gen from an article I simply wouldn't bother most of the time and anyway, technical information is often quite complex and the relevant pages would have to be printed out just so they can be followed in the workshop.

I think there's room for both systems - don't you?

Regards John

[Deleted]

I would suggest that the newcomers to the hobby who have been posting here get themselves a copy of George Thomas's 'The Model Engineers Workshop Manual' from TEE Publishing (or the original articles, most of which were published in 'M.E.). Try following the instructions to make one or two of the simpler pieces of workshop kit, then procede to something a bit more complicated. You will end up with some nice pieces of tooling which will stand you in good stead for life AND you will have gained a wealth of experience. George was sometimes a bit long-winded and some things could have been done more quickly, but my experience is that his methods always work. Not for nothing is it often referred to as 'The Gospel According To St. George'

[isc]

Schools here in new zealand seem to be the same as UK,they"do" technology but real metalwork with lathes etc and lumps of metal are frowned on!
its quite a few yrs ago(might be 10 or so)a young lad in UK published a small aero engine in ME with detailed plans,might be worth looking up!

[classicsteve]

Blimey - mainly over 65 you say - maybe that explains the pre-occupation with steam railways.

As for ME Magazine, I have a lot of 50s copies, and they always had materials for the beginner, such as Novices Corner, or articles on workshop practice, such as taps and tapping - but a much bigger chunk of the population already had basic training back then.

These days so few people have the basics, but you find determined pockets of people having a go at home engineering scattered across a range of hobbies. There are people building telescope tracking systems for home astronomy, others making parts to tart-up their cars or bikes, and some trying to improve or repair R/C models. The common theme being making things yourself - so maybe a Home Workshop magazine or web-based system would fit the bill.

They have something called Home Shop Machinist magazine in the states - I wonder what that covers ?

[ettingtonliam]

Look at homeshopmachinistbbs on the internet. Those guys have seriously large machinery. If thats the standard, size and complexity of stuff they do at home, what do they do at work?

Richard

[classicsteve]

Ok - so maybe US Home Based Machinists covers a spread of cost - but the business interest is to draw people in and then sell them better and better kit - also I guess those guys have more elbow room than us in the UK generally.

Maybe the UK equivalent would be "Making Stuff", rapidly being trumped by "Making Cool Stuff", and then the professionals magazine "Making bloody amazing stuff".

I am just kicking around ideas here - trying to be slightly provocative, but feeling that maybe there is a small missed opportunity still lurking for cultivating a new generation of people who might actually make something at home.

Who knows, as the pendulum swings back from merchant banking as a career, maybe a few more will be wondering about engineering. We sure are going to need engineers in the power industry, from wind farms to nuclear. The government might even support such an initiative.

Steve

[isc]

Seems there is hope yet here in darfield nz,the local high schoolis building new metal work shop etc(there is a metal work shop thats not being used at the moment,no teacher),should be ready next yr.

[dscott]

To put something back int this wonderful Hobie of ours I have between other projects been working on a very S.I.M.P.le engine.
(see below) aimed at someone with a bare minimum of equipment
and initially with no prior knowledge of metalworking.

I decided not to shave this morning, so managed to tap out all 10
handrail stanchions M4, I could have done them 4BA but found a section of the metric stuff for free, and as the drawings are done in both fits in nicely. Joke, do all Model Engineers with beards make the most parts!!!! talking of my weekly shave!!!!makes me look older.

I am a young looking 50, so find I have similar older people questioning my knowledge, plus having a daughter of 19 months takes about 20 years off you in some peoples perception.
Forget 10 years younger TV pro-gramme!!!

Now completed, is the simp, le trolley for the project with a last bash this morning with an 8 mm drill for the two pieces of studding for the footrests. Everything bolted together, and no welding or castings. These replace the 2 M6 ones which I felt were too thin.
Ok I had to run for the 9.02... but it was worth it.
We are having an official track opening this weekend so I can have a try out of the trolley.

So it is design, think about the parts, make with the novice in mind at all times, using what they would have available and not being afraid of modifying it to suite if I drop a clanger.

David.

[dchallender]

I agree with the comments of Steve really in terms of the access nowadays to engineering is completely different to when I trained as an apprentice which is only 20 years ago.

Luckily I trained as a marine steam engineer and met a model engineer very early on in my career, it is then I started to read model engineer and eventually I got a house and then a lathe !!

I read model engineer all the way through the 90's and then stopped as I felt it stopped being relevant, as when I first started reading it in the ealy 90's it covered a wide range of articles and subjects, from tool making, patterns, steam engines, trains, workshop equipment, etc.
However the reason why I stopped reading it was because it almost exculsively covered trains and seemed to drop everything else. At the time I was in my mid 20's and had an interest and back ground in engineering but at the height of the dot.com I was working in electronics and everything seemed to change as technology became instantly accessible to everyone and has continued to do so. So given todays change in technology I agree I think articles about RC engines, model jets & turbines, etc. would start to make it more relevant.

I think you're never going to please everyone (myself included ) but a think maybe readdressing the balance may well work even if it is a small part that was dedicated at the younger end of the market.

just a thought

rgds

darren

[johnstevo]

I much prefer the term Home Shop Machinist over Model Engineer, I have a comprehensive workshop as do many of my friends but none of us build models.

Mine is for tooling and work and many of my friends is to support another hobby like vintage vehicles. This is one area where the magazines could help, the previous editor of MEW, Dave Fenner, once told me that the issues of MEW that had bikes and vintage cars on the cover outsold the others.

I meant you have to be a total anorak if you can recognise a dividing head at 15 paces in W H Smitts

John S.

[kwil]

The trouble with going down the route of say m-bikes, vintage cars etc is that you then begin to be a specialist mag again. ME is supposed to be a specialist model mag and MEW is closer to the Home Workshop Machinist, I do not like the Home Shop Machinist tag because its still a workshop to me whereas a "shop" is definately US speak, how many people looking along the racks would know what a Home Shop is?

[johnstevo]

That's probably why they put Machinist after Home Shop ?

John S.

[pauldenney]

With reference to Steve’s comments on his experiences at school etc. It not just engineering where de-skilling is taking a firm grip its everywhere and I believe that there is a simple reason for it. Clever people don’t spend as much money. I fix my own car; I don’t pay somebody else to do it for me. I cook all my own food from scratch I don’t buy ready meals. My wife mends clothes, other women she knows cant and so they throw them away and buy new. Capitalism is about making people work really hard to buy things that if they weren’t working so hard they could make for themselves. The ideal member of society (as far as the capitalist ideal goes) is somebody who is clever enough to do their job and no more. They Want somebody who can drive to work in a car they can’t maintain. Work all day in a shop where they sell stuff to other people who work in shops and then return home to sit on their DFDS sofa (which they bought in a sale) and watch Jamey Oliver on the telly while eating their Tesco ready meal. They don’t want people who can read small print, see through advertising or in any way buck the system. The vast majority of the general public have become little more than worker bees providing the honey that oils the system. They live out there days in anonymous toil dreaming of fame on X factor while all the while what little wealth they have accrued is leached away from them. We don’t value intellect in this country anymore, engineers are regarded as nerds and anything that takes more than 5 minutes to do is rejected as too difficult. Luckily there are a few people who (despite the derision) refuse to give in to this, I wish there were more, they are the people who made this country what it was. Alas they way things are going the bulldog breed may not last much longer. China is in ascendance now the western dog has had its day. I really hope we can get our communal act together but I can’t see it. As I have always said if you want a better society you had better move to one (where ever it may be). Ah well rant over, it’s back to the shed for me.

Comrade Paul

[dscott]

I have worked with modern students for 20 years now, and have noticed a gradual decline in their ability to make things, this is not necessary their fault as with our society things tend to come out of the box, all revved up and ready to go after the tricky bit of fitting the batteries etc.

We have traditional band saws, panel saws, a new wood lathe made in Taiwan and plainer etc. New to the department are cnc routers which are only a year old, but are now fully booked up for the next 2 months due mostly to the fact that most students lack the basic skills to cut and shape timber, but prefer to sit for hours in front of a computer and do a superb Solid Works rendered drawing which can also be machined out for them.

Shame as I am also in the queue for some machining for loco wheel patterns.

A simple sketch on a scrap of paper is beyond most.

Though they do all love their inches except for the Greek Architecture ones who insist in working in Cm's when all our machines and thinking are in mm. Fine art students use feet, or this big (with outstretched hands)which is a universal size.

Most make first, and think about a drawing when they get back to their digs, this helps when we run out of materials to-wards the end of a project module, as it is called these days.

Comrade David.

PS. dearest wife got rid of her little red book years ago in China, but now our daughter has one for medical records!!!

[Tony K]

Jan 17, 2009 4:33:35 GMT alanstepney said:

I suspect that the results of the survey would indeed show that the average model engineer was of the older generation.
Many take up the hobby upon retirement, and that alone will skew the average.
However, I do agree that we should all try to attract younger people to the hobby.

Very much agree - many do take up the hobby on retirement and in their 50s and 60s. This seems to get forgotten when people start talking about demography.
It is always noticeable people keep dying in clubs - this can only be expected with the kind of age profile we have. Three of our club members have died this year and two last year, but membership grows at a steady rate.

[dchallender]

I'm sure the survey does reflect the age of the readership but I have been 'model engineering' since I was 18 when I got hooked when someone asked me to turn a small crank shaft for a model steam engine on my first trip to sea as a cadet engineer.

In terms of the demographic I would guess that the cost of the kit is an issue and I know in my own personal curcumstances it took me a long time before I could afford a lathe and the bits of kit you need.

Also if I think the magazine itself, I was an avid reader for many years from the late 80's through the 90's and then as we turned the corner of the new millenium there were more and more articles about trains. Don't get me wrong I'm a marine steam engineer by trade, turbines and all that but steam trains are a bit of a niche market and even more so among the younger generation.

The thing that really got me interested was the small machine tools, I remember an article on a minature bridgeport miller and thinking wow!! ME seems to have dropped that type of article and seems to concentrate mainly on trains which is a shame and the main reason I stopped buying it, I still do the usual browse at WH SMiths but nothing captures me, I assume its even more difficult for a younger generation.

I think a lot of people assume that we need to talk more about CNC etc but I don't think we do, I have a 9yr old daughter who is fascinated by engineering and physics, not because she wants to be an engineer but because she wants to learn how things work, I can see the same urge to learn in her class mates as well. If you want to get younger people to be involved then we need to inspire them to learn about how things work.

I've always taken the same approach with apprentices inspire them and they will do the rest.......now what inspires the current generation ...?

[Deleted]

Apr 7, 2010 19:04:20 GMT dchallender said:

I've always taken the same approach with apprentices inspire them and they will do the rest.......now what inspires the current generation ...?

This is an inspirational piece in itself, and I agree 100 per cent. Kids want to know how things work and to get involved in the workings, but they are not allowed to in this risk averse world that many (most?) people seem to live in. How often have you heard parents say "Don't go near that!", "Don't touch!" or "Stay with me!".
Another rant well off my chest, but unfortunately my generation has to take the blame for the condition (read 'conditioning') of the current one. It's all our fault!
JB

[dscott]

Dear All,

I am constantly introducing my young daughter to real things, and she does enjoy everything. Sunday saw real sand being put into her sand box, the tame stuff will not hold up when moulding and is four times the price!
We had a lovely session by the drilling machine safety glasses worn and she pulled down, and drilled several holes, I have had her tapping some M 5's which she also loves for a while. I must remember to hide all the sharp toys on the 16th when she has her 2 1/2 year old visit from the nurse.

The previous Sunday found us in Taunton, and a lovely walk in the park, and an excited family with everything to enjoy, a small persons play area, surrounded by a model rail track with big steam engines so she could have a ride behind. I enjoyed it as well of course, and trying to get some discount with my Newton Abbot club card!!!

We had two prospective younger men turn up at our last evening talk and I found that I was the only one that bothered to take an interest in talking to them, I wonder in how many other clubs the same thing happens?

David, now in search for some very small P.P.E, as its called these days.

[ewal]

I think it is mainly an old mans hobby, I started when I was 70 with no skill but hoping to build a steam engine. The clubs were to far away, but a friend in the next village would give me advice when required. I agree with what has been said about the young ones my grandsons are not interested. I don't think the hobby will die as new recruits are joining when they retire with 20 years left. I am in my 83rd year & still going strong building No.12 steamer with 4 more to build. I have a wife who helped me to make almost 2000 concrete sleepers to build my track in 1998, it has been flooded twice so concrete sleepers were a good idea.

E.W.

[feo2man]

I have just read through this thread on youngsters and getting them interested in our love for engineering. There are so many excellent points made from contributors that there are too many to mention. They also reminded me of how we should treat each other when we are asked to help. So many good and helpful people on here.

I have just retired as Head of Design and Technology and read about the Deputy Head who stopped the annealing of a piece of copper. That folks, basically sums up the understanding of most senior management teams within our schools today of Design and Technology as a key subject. Design and Technology teachers are of a different breed to your average Math and English teacher. For one thing, their subject costs peanuts to run. If you say their subjects have a factor of 1, then DT should have a cost factor of around 5. See where lm going? I started at the school in 2005 with a budget of £2750 for 700 students( oh yes! and that was to be shared amongst 3 subjects within my dept and 3 projects per yr/student). Additionally, the machinery maintenance was paid from that allowance, even paper and pencils!. The department was failing under OFSTED and the HOD in place was off with a nervous breakdown. The matalwork room was converted to an art room because more students wanted to take GCSE Art. I could go on for a long time about the demise of the subject, but lets stick to the point.
If, DT was not a compulsary subject between 11-15, it would be an even more watered down subject, believe me!

So, you have extremely talented teachers, very enthusiastic to pass on their skills and interest but, you do not have the equipment, money and, most importantly the time on the timetable to teach engineering is very limited. Earlier I read, that "they" remember drilling and riveting a coat hook. Well im sorry folks, thats what most of the projects have become! As long as you have covered elements of what is in the National Curriculum, in what ever way you wish, then that is going to be the diet of engineering skills our children are going to receive for the future. This type of delivery allows schools' to not have high quality workshops. As long as they have covered that element, you can tick the box on your Scheme of Work spreadsheet and OFSTED and the local advisor are happy.
Now, lets put the other side. There are schools out there that do have great workshops, supportive senior management teams, sufficient funds and enthusiastic... yes, you've got it, there are'nt many! But those that are, students produce work of incredibly high standards. Solely due to great teachers who not only work hard during the day, but are available after school too. And how many schools are like this are there? Give teachers the funding, support and environment then they will produce and enthuse young engineers.
Senior management teams are only interested in one thing at the end of each year, A-C passes (crazy system of measuring a schools success of students).
I started with a department with only 16.9% A-C passes, that then rose to 42% for Resistant Materials. Great l thought, were are getting there. Summer 2007, Director of Education and the Head of School asked me to attend a meeting. I was told that we were going to change the Resistant Materials GCSE course to BTEC Engineering Level 2. Wow l thought!, now we can really move forward. Woooooo! was the reply, I was thinking new workshop, new machinery, engineering at last! You cannot have any new machinery, no money for books, no hike in budget, no, no....... you have to teach and achive higher results with less. Let me explain, Level 1 means that the highest students can get is a D grade ( they also do lots of lovely practical work too!). Level 2 means, they have a double GCSE equivelant to A-C grades. They either pass, merit or distinction the course. No one is allowed to fail... not good for the results you see! School looks good when OFSTED come to visit. It also keeps you out of the Heads' office and getting your arse kicked if the results arent what they expected (demanded really!).
Here's the funny part! The total sum of equipment to teach this new exam course was...... 2 Pedestal Drillers, hand files.... thats it, oh sorry, l did buy a new plumbers torch to melt pewter when demonstrating casting techniques with cuttle fish moulds. Therefore, 90% of the two year course was spent in a computer room completing the course. To be told off on may ocassions for block booking Fri am for BTEC Engineering!

The students finished the course, they got their grades, l retired. Having been on anti depressants for 2 years and unable to fight an idiotic regime of penny pinching and no real fore sight except to exam results. I was not going to go the same way as the last HOD.

So, whats the answer?

Scenario:

If you as a CEO of lets say Esso, went to see a government minister for Education and insisted you wanted Engineering back on the curriculum with sufficient funding, resources and teacher training, you will be patted on the head and told we will look into it. Goodbye!

If all the CEO's of all major oil companies, Eng companies, Chairmen of all engineering clubs/ institutions went in and banged on the table and said this is what your are going to do! You would get it. The main problem is that all of us want it, but we are all working as factions, no clout! the government are relying on us not joining forces/ voices.

It would take some 15 years before you saw the benefits from the initiative. You have to start in primary schools! Hence 15 yrs before you saw real results.

So, until we do get engineering back into the curriculum what do we do? We just keep on plugging our hobby, supporting each other and hope someone in government wakes up to the fact that Japanese, German and Chinese schools are laughing at us at our stupidity for allowing it to happen in the first place. Well, allowing a lady to scrap all of our apprentiships!

if you are interested in acareer in teaching, here's a link.

www.tda.gov.uk/get-into-teaching.aspx?ilewa=10000428&WT.srch=1&gclid=CPTniY7zzKUCFc0e4Qod2Ryblg

Sorry about my rant, l do apologise!

Daniel