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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2010 8:18:07 GMT
Daniel
Your contribution indicates that target driven academics are the last people one should employ to run education.
Not a rant at all, just an accurate and concise summary of the state of British engineering training!
No grammatical errors either.......
JB
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Post by feo2man on Dec 2, 2010 20:38:08 GMT
JB
That is an incredibly accurate and concise way of summarising things. So true too!
I just wish l had the influence to change things but l could not get people to listen and therefore gave up.
Daniel
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2010 22:49:25 GMT
JB That is an incredibly accurate and concise way of summarising things. So true too! Daniel Forgive me Daniel: I was being complimentary about your rant, not mine! JB |
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Post by Workshopshed on Dec 14, 2010 11:28:44 GMT
I think that the Sandown exhibition this weekend clearly showed the demographics of model engineers.
Male
60+
Car owner
Disposable income
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Post by feo2man on Dec 14, 2010 13:36:42 GMT
I too shook my head in disbelief, mainly at schools having all that workshop machinery that nobody is allowed to use for 'elf 'n safety reasons. I did a year of metalwork at school [1972]to fill up my timetable for the last year and it opened up a whole new world to me. What chance nowadays do youngsters get in that field? Ian. belive me, its more to do with money and inexperienced teachers!, not H and S Daniel |
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Post by feo2man on Dec 14, 2010 13:39:27 GMT
I think that the Sandown exhibition this weekend clearly showed the demographics of model engineers. Male 60+ Car owner Disposable income hang on! lets change that! 57 + !! not that old yet! Daniel |
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Post by mattscrutton on Jan 19, 2014 1:33:48 GMT
interesting thread, thought I'd add my two pennance worth as this is something pault and I have discussed at length in the real world. I'm 24 by the way.
Its fair to say we live in the age of magic (to quote paul), you don't need to know how stuff works, it just does, it goes phut and a new item replaces it. I grew up without a computer or games console and just had my Dad's old Meccano and 3 rail Dublo as well Lego etc, I think its fair to say I had a constructive childhood. My family restored a wooden boat and Dad mended the family cars himself so I sort of grew up with that in mind. Many young people never touch tools at all and so its understandable they might find this sort of thing daunting.
I attended a private school and fortunately for me that meant a better experience than many school students experience, I was allowed to use machine tools and churned out a couple of ossy cylindered engines before I left, depleting the schools brass stock in the process. I also did foundry work and welding. But the thing I distinctly remember was when I was testing the first ossy engine, the workmanship was terrible but it does run well, and the year 7s who happened to be in the workshop that lesson were fascinated. They thought it was something I had brought in from outside and hadn't realised it had been built using the machines around them, some were amazed it was possible to even do this. Some didn't believe me, how depressing is that.
The other problem aside from that I feel was the teaching, the only time you would use a lathe at school was drilling a hole in the middle of a wheel, that was it aside from if you needed it for a GCSE/A level project, so the kids weren't exactly being encouraged to do this anyway, probably for convenience more than anything. I received my kick up the arse when I joined Network Rail's apprenticeship scheme and gleaned enough nous that I could tentatively start doing things more advanced, and its worked out alright thus far. One of my friends on the scheme rebuilt a secondhand and very dead 3 1/2" gauge Tich in his bedroom, with the boiler being built in the sites copper smith shop!
I don't believe the hobby is in really serious trouble just yet, at the Cockcrow we have more juniors than we can find jobs for sometimes (and we keep getting more - are we just lucky?) and several of them have expressed an interest in model engineering, one of them is already building a loco having already built rolling stock, albeit with help. The same goes for Guildford Model Engineers where there is quite a good number of younger people across the membership groups, one of them being Andy who is building the fine Bagnall elsewhere on this forum, another younger member has started a Standard 2MT and runs a Simplex.
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Post by Roger on Jan 20, 2014 7:26:32 GMT
Hi Matt,
I think you're pretty unusual in having had any exposure to engineering at school, most don't seem to do anything involving metals. The lack of exposure to these things means that most young people are completely unaware of how metal objects are made. I don't think there's a lack of interest, the systems are simply not in place to teach those who are of that disposition.
I'll leave it to others to comment on how many young members there are at clubs because I have no idea. My guess is that young members are likely to be Sons of older members, I doubt if there are many 'outsiders'.
I'm delighted to hear that you're young and engaged with this wonderful hobby, we could use a few hundred more like you. Sadly, my own children couldn't be less interested, but that's the way it goes. You can lead a horse to water, and all that.
Roger
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Post by mattscrutton on Jan 20, 2014 13:04:31 GMT
thats pretty much what I was getting at Roger, though you have put it better than I! As you say, the teaching aspect of it is lacking, the kids were very interested in the engine I built, but in the course of their normal school curriculum wouldn't have made something like that. I just wish I'd started sooner than 6th form.
Actually all of our junior members are there of their own accord, only one of our younger members who has since "grown up" (as if we do that) was introduced via his father.
You only have to look at the membership of the Facebook groups for this sort of thing to realise there are actually a lot of young people involved.
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Post by Roger on Jan 20, 2014 13:33:23 GMT
That's interesting Matt, I didn't know that there were any Facebook groups for that, maybe you could point me at one of those. The internet ought to mean that the hobby is taking off rather than shrinking, and maybe that's the case. young people are so much more connected that we're used to being and we should be taking the lead from them. The great thing about that sort of media and wikis, is that they don't vanish like private sites do when people sadly pass on. I'm sure a lot of valuable information is lost by that process and I'd urge anyone with a private site to transfer the contents to a Wiki for preference where it can become a body of knowledge. The trouble is that the majority of Model Engineers are 60+ and they are not always the best at new technology. I've taken my own advice and started a Wiki for SPEEDY but I'm not aware of anyone doing the same for other locomotives as yet.
Roger
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Post by bobpendleton on Jan 20, 2014 17:23:49 GMT
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Post by mattscrutton on Jan 20, 2014 18:46:48 GMT
That's interesting Matt, I didn't know that there were any Facebook groups for that, maybe you could point me at one of those. go on Facebook, and for example type into the search bar "7 1/4" railways" or "miniature railway appreciation", and you'll see a large number of these groups members are young people. "7 1/4" railways" has 967 members currently, and although some may not be interested in actually building locos they do at least drive them or help run railways in one form or another, and the memberships international too, from the US to South Africa to Australia etc. The other point I'd like to make is that although I consider myself a model engineer of sorts (muddle engineer) I don't actively buy any of the magazines, for the simple reason that I don't have to, there is enough information online to help me do what I want to do, and I have numerous very experienced friends who point me the right way when I get lost. Quite a lot of what I do is either based on Baggo's superb website or the Tich construction book! I'm not suggesting for one minute that this is the same of all younger modellers but it might have a bearing on it. Interesting people should say Sandown had few younger people, I was an exhibitor in the foyer on the 16mm layout, so I saw virtually everyone on the Saturday enter and leave, and I saw loads of kids from the very young to teenage years, most of them stopped to see the 16mm puff puffs whizzing round, granted there were rather more retirees but that's to be expected as already mentioned. |
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Post by Roger on Jan 20, 2014 19:53:35 GMT
Thanks for that, but it's a rubbish report that barely mentions Steam Locomotive or Traction Engines and there's not one picture of either. I left a comment to that effect. |
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Post by Roger on Jan 20, 2014 20:15:19 GMT
That's interesting Matt, I didn't know that there were any Facebook groups for that, maybe you could point me at one of those. go on Facebook, and for example type into the search bar "7 1/4" railways" or "miniature railway appreciation", and you'll see a large number of these groups members are young people. "7 1/4" railways" has 967 members currently, and although some may not be interested in actually building locos they do at least drive them or help run railways in one form or another, and the memberships international too, from the US to South Africa to Australia etc. The other point I'd like to make is that although I consider myself a model engineer of sorts (muddle engineer) I don't actively buy any of the magazines, for the simple reason that I don't have to, there is enough information online to help me do what I want to do, and I have numerous very experienced friends who point me the right way when I get lost. Quite a lot of what I do is either based on Baggo's superb website or the Tich construction book! I'm not suggesting for one minute that this is the same of all younger modellers but it might have a bearing on it. Interesting people should say Sandown had few younger people, I was an exhibitor in the foyer on the 16mm layout, so I saw virtually everyone on the Saturday enter and leave, and I saw loads of kids from the very young to teenage years, most of them stopped to see the 16mm puff puffs whizzing round, granted there were rather more retirees but that's to be expected as already mentioned. Ok, I've done that on Facebook and there's quite a lot there, although nothing that makes me inclined to join at the moment. I'll look some more. I too don't buy the magazines, I've never bought a copy of any of them. A friend has lent me a few but they didn't really interest me that much. I think you're right about the internet and places like this too. doubtless it's all there in the magazines too, but you could build a locomotive for the cost of buying them all to find out. |
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Post by cplmickey on Jan 20, 2014 22:43:32 GMT
I think the most likely problem for younger people is the lack of opportunity to use machines. Schools don't generally use them any more, either because of the curriculum or perhaps perceived health and safety issues, there are far, far fewer engineering apprenticeships than when I was younger and far fewer night classes at colleges. So for those who do develop an interest it must be really difficult to get hands on and actually make something. And if it's too difficult then in most cases it won't happen.
It was interesting at the show to see teenagers using the lathe at the end of the SMEE stand. There was obviously a genuine interest there and concentration on the faces of those young guys. But then what? Where do they carry on that enthusiasm if mum and dad can't shell out a couple of £k to set up a workshop. It doesn't matter how much interest is generated at shows or on-line, if the facilities aren't there, properly supervised and instructed, then it will die.
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Post by Roger on Jan 21, 2014 7:19:51 GMT
I think the most likely problem for younger people is the lack of opportunity to use machines. Schools don't generally use them any more, either because of the curriculum or perhaps perceived health and safety issues, there are far, far fewer engineering apprenticeships than when I was younger and far fewer night classes at colleges. So for those who do develop an interest it must be really difficult to get hands on and actually make something. And if it's too difficult then in most cases it won't happen. It was interesting at the show to see teenagers using the lathe at the end of the SMEE stand. There was obviously a genuine interest there and concentration on the faces of those young guys. But then what? Where do they carry on that enthusiasm if mum and dad can't shell out a couple of £k to set up a workshop. It doesn't matter how much interest is generated at shows or on-line, if the facilities aren't there, properly supervised and instructed, then it will die. I couldn't agree more, and this is why I'm an advocate for bringing all kinds of modelling into the same exhibition space. Young people can afford to build model aircraft or boats with the minimum of equipment and see what the future might hold for them if they see steam locomotives and what's involved at the same venues. Most people don't get their own workshop until much later in life, I've had to wait a very long time for the facilities I have now. Setting the wheels in motion is the main thing, if the interest is there, they will eventually follow up on that dream. |
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Post by Rex Hanman on Jan 21, 2014 13:34:33 GMT
Actually all of our junior members are there of their own accord, only one of our younger members who has since "grown up" (as if we do that) was introduced via his father. We have two actively interested youngsters. Both bring their dads rather than the other way round!  |
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Post by Roger on Jan 21, 2014 14:41:45 GMT
At least it looks like one club is attracting young members, I wonder what your secret is...
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Post by mattscrutton on Jan 21, 2014 17:44:51 GMT
Yes I do too!
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Post by alanstepney on Jan 21, 2014 19:46:06 GMT
As well as model engineering, I am also a Radio Amateur.
In my (radio) club we have numerous younger members, mainly because we run training courses, and try to encourage them to come along after they finish the course.
Many dont, but a few do and become active (and valued) club members.
One ME club I used to belong to ran sessions in conjunction with local schools.
For the very young, just seeing a train pulling a rake of wagons, some of which contained "those black rocks that burn", gave the teachers enough material to base a couple of lessons on.
That the kids also got a "free" ride round as well, meant that they were keep to come along again.
For older children, other facets of the hobby were shown, always by arrangement with the teachers so that it fitted into the overall syllabus.
Inevitably, some wanted to come along on Open Days bringing their parents and siblings.
Later, often much later, some became members.
There must be many ways of encouraging new members, but it does require effort, and, I suspect, many existing members are not prepared to put in that effort.
PS, I see that the same comments have been made over the past 4+ years
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