Model Engineer demographic

[steam4ian]

G'day all.

I was disappointed to read in Issue #4337 of Model Engineer that the then editor wrote in Smoke Rings "We expect our new readership survey to show that many model engineers are retired, hopefully with protected pensions."

I consider it sad when a magazine sees its main readership as what is a dying breed. This was not the aim in the past as much of LBCS's writing is aimed at the beginner and in days of yore people often did not live more than a few years beyond retirement.

It is essential for our hobby that we all, this includes those who seek to lighten our pockets, aim to generate new interest in the hobby among the younger section of society.

I trust the new editor can show some leadership in this area. Maybe there is opportunity for steam engines made from plumbing bits and hot air engines from soft drink cans.

Regards,
Ian

[alanstepney]

I suspect that the results of the survey would indeed show that the average model engineer was of the older generation.
Many take up the hobby upon retirement, and that alone will skew the average.

However, I do agree that we should all try to attract younger people to the hobby.

[drjohn]

I think some bright spark needs to write an interactive computer game to machine and assemble a steam model on the X-Box or play-station - mind you, it would need to include lots of blood and guts to attract the modern generation - maybe the odd accident with a sheet of brass snatching in the drill press and eviscerating the player ? ;D ;D ;D

[davidmew]

Hi There
Previous surveys have shown that Model Engineer readers are mainly over 65.
Not all are retired, they range from youngsters upwards.

Model Engineer mags from the 1900's onwards have all mentioned an older readership as being a problem.

I don't see it as a problem.
See my comments in Smoke Rings 4344 when it is published.

The survey has been done and is going into 4345 together with the index.

There will be an extra 8 pages so you don't lose out on content.
regards David

[Deleted]

When Percival Marshall started the magazine in 1898 it is said that he was told that it would last only a few years because the majority of readers were in an older age group and would all soon be dead (My feeling is that one or two of those are still in their workshops devilling away!)

[grahamo]

Being in my early forties perhaps I'm to young to comment but here goes! I understand the largest growing segment of the population in the, ummm, more experienced generation.. with longer life expectancies than ever before, perhaps attracting the "over 65s" is not such a bad thing...

I hate to think what's happened to my pension plan with the stock exchage as it has been for the last 6 or 12 months. I might only have 20 years left as I doubt if my pension will now cover the hobby!

By nature I think this a hobby that appeals to an older person, Youth does not often provide the patience required, and I'm sure there are many like myself who would like to spend time in the workshop but life, work, kids all get in the way. Roll on that lottery win.

BTW
I take EIM and was given a load of old ME's that actually got my interest in hobby a couple of years ago. Sounds like the recent changes at ME are positive and I'll certainly be looking new copies with a view to adding it to my shopping list

[davej254]

Does the results from the survey that show a lack of interest possibly have anything to do with the fact that there are hardly any articles describing simple models with the younger builder in mind? i taught myself the basics of using a lathe with a series of articles called "the first affair with a lathe" and my first project was a simple steam engine by edgar westbury designed i think ideally for school children, which didnt need any castings just to see if I could do it!
Getting back to my point! Surely a series of articles aimed at the complete basics might help attract new blood?

[Staffordshirechina]

I think davej254 has a point but equally so does drjohn. Both my sons (now 22 & 20 resp.) are technically minded, have fiddled in my workshop since birth and are doing technical degrees. However, neither would sit down and read about how to make a model. In the modern world learning and information come from computer screens, not books.
Unfortunately, many model engineers see computers as the work of the Devil. Obviously, if you are reading this post, you do not and appreciate the wealth of information available.
I find it very sad that many fellow club members will struggle for weeks to find some information or supplier that could be accessed in seconds online. They will tackle the most intricate of models but are terrified of a computer.
Now, if ME or MEW were to publish DVDs of Harold Hall or other basic series, then we may be getting somewhere!
In fact whilst we are at it, why not publish ME and MEW in pdf form as a subscription download. With no printing, no postage, it could be much cheaper too.

Les

[davej254]

Sorry, I forgot to add... Im actually 24, and have had to teach myself everything so far from scratch; In school I think the only metal work experience I had was making a coat hook (which involved 2 countersunk rivets!)
Model engineer to download now there is an idea, If only the back issues were done too, also my gf might not threaten to throw me out through the excessive amount of books.
Maybe on a seperate note, a relatively well known (in its field) archaeological journal has just converted its back issues to pdfs on a dvd, maybe this could be the future and save space for people looking for back articles?

[steam4ian]

G'day all.

I'm with Les and Dave, down-loadable copies would be a great space saver. If my experience with an electronics magazine is an indication there would big cost savings as well.

From the magazine's perspective promotional opportunity would be lost by not being visible in the newsagent/book store.

Regards
Ian

[davidmew]

Hi There
The Model Engineer web site should be up and running soon.
We have developed templates and apart from loading up content could be done in days.

We will be giving away free plans for 6 issues from 4346 and if that is successful, it will probably continue indefinitely.

I thought a series of plans but someone said not a good idea so we are compromising.
A double sided plan, one side stand alone and the other side part of a series.
First up will be Martin Evans Metro.
Where possible the opportunity to update plans will be taken.
The Metro has a problem with the outside frames according to, I think old biker? Rather than alter the plans without checking, I think the best solution is to incorporate a text box with details of possible problems. This might solve more problems than we might create.

There will be one of Edgar Westbury's engines on the rear.

The next stage is to put the construction articles for these series on to the new website, possibly as PDF's
Things are moving again.
regards David

[Laurie_B]

Jan 23, 2009 14:55:03 GMT davidmew said:

We will be giving away free plans for 6 issues from 4346 and if that is successful, it will probably continue indefinitely.

I thought a series of plans but someone said not a good idea so we are compromising.
A double sided plan, one side stand alone and the other side part of a series.
First up will be Martin Evans Metro.
Where possible the opportunity to update plans will be taken.
The Metro has a problem with the outside frames according to, I think old biker? Rather than alter the plans without checking, I think the best solution is to incorporate a text box with details of possible problems. This might solve more problems than we might create.

There may well be a few inaccuracies in Martin Evan's design,as I've been looking at the drawings with a view to starting building one soon.
But then,I thought,the Metro class of locos might make a suitable subject for an article by Peter Rich-if you asked him nicely that is!
Over the many years that the Metro locos existed there were several design changes and rebuilds that resulted in 'Small','Medium' and 'Large' Metros;then there were condensing and non-condensing versions,and these locos were,at various times,fitted with round top (S2/S4) boilers and latterly Belpaire boilers (B4).
Just a thought for the mag.Keep up the good work,I certainly like the new look ME!

[davej254]

Sounds like a good idea to me, as someone has mentioned before pdfs and website may not appeal to the older readers, the majority of younger people and dare i say it people new to model engineering have access to the internet. Surely this would be a new way of attracting people to the hobby who have an interest? all you have to do is look at the large amount of personnal website for the 7"x12" chinese lathes, or tiag lathes.

[prdad]

I for one believe that such a massive archive of information that MEW represents should be available for purchase electronically. Not only would it make the information available when the beginner needs it, it would also make the magazines future more commercially viable. An online community of knowledgeable people will only lead to more interest and personal achievements. I look forward to it!

[ripslider]

I think this thread has brought up two slightly different topics.

I'm 27. Discussing the idea of "making things" with some of my friends, and some of my staff leads to odd looks - why would I make anything - it's all in the shops??

At school there were wood and metal lathes, but we weren't allowed to use them in case we hurt ourselves. My dad rallied a few other dads together and they bent the schools ear enough to get us permission to use these. This lasted about 6 weeks until the deputy head walked in to find out CDT teacher showing us annealing of copper in the forge, and shut it down.

So there is an attitude problem in the younger generation - my generation - and this is reinforced as well.

The concept of engineering is fading rapidly in the UK - it is leaving the public conciousness. Unless they actually go looking for it, it is difficult to find. I believe this IS a fairly new thing, and so I think the concept of "making things with your hands" - which is different from "chucking things into AutoCAD and seeing what comes out of the CNC machine" will be pretty much gone in a generation.


However, I think there is a flip side.

---- MAJOR and VERY IMPORTANT note ---
What follows has an enormous caveat of "this does not include this forum and it's members" will discuss later, but this forum seems to defy everything else I have experienced in this hobby so far

Model engineering is - by far and away - the most difficult hobby I have ever tried to enter - and it seems to relate to age and past experience.

My age is definately held against me in some peoples eyes. My age means that I am not welcome at the local ME club as they think I will "mess about". My age means that it took my father in law to assist finding me someone to teach me the ropes - it was almost as though he had to show HIS engineering credentials, and then promise that I'm not a time waster before someone would start to take me seriously.

Perhaps I had a bad experience. Perhaps these guys have had bad experiences with other young guys before and I am reaping what others sowed. However, I have had to be stubbon in order to get this far.

My age very much counts against me in another way. I have *no* grounding in engineering apart from what I have picked up. By this I mean that I've only used a lathe 5-6 times. So understanding the jargon is complex, and understanding much of what is discussed in ME and MEW takes hours on the internet.

A beginners series would be fantastic. Or a one off glossary of terms. Or 1 trivial, easy project a month that I can get my teeth into. Maybe using more descriptive language.

Lastly I think my age counts against me in my level of connection to much of the subject matter.

I want to make things for making things sake. I *like* the idea of a steam engine, they look very impressive, but I have grown up in a world totally devoid of steam so there is no "desperation" to make a steam train.

On the other hand, making a complete set of tougher and lighter components out of aluminium for my R/C racing car would see me out in the workshop until the wee hours of the morning *right now*. As would tools and mechanisms to help me build model planes and boats better - like a full well built vac bagging system - or a .61 engine that is as small as humanely possible. Or even just a half sized set of the tools I already use but are a bit big to fit in small spaces.

I race planes competitively many weekends a year - me and huge numbers of guys of my age - three weekends ago I was at a meet of 70+ people, and most were under 35. If ME ran a set of articles that detailed building a lighter engine, or even just one that has a smaller physical volume that what is available - or even if it was a different shape! - the magazine would sell out for every issue it ran the series, and this forum would be swamped with newbies.


So, getting back to the initial post - I *wouldn't* be surprised to see most readers of ME are retired. But I think there are multiple reasons for that - mostly boiling down to:

1) many guys of my age don't understand that things are actually "made" - by a person rather than pixies who supply shops.
2) Model Engineering is not the easiest hobby to enter for us whippersnappers, especially if you see nothing of it at school or at work
3) The subject matter of ME doesn't quite link up with what many guys of my age who DO have a "building things" hobby and WOULD branch out if the content was related to their existing needs or desires.


Lastly - about that Caveat. This forum I do not think is anywhere close to much of what I have said. It is incredibly welcoming. I have asked some very newbie-type questions and recieved nothing but great advice and positive encouragement and even advice, plans, links etc by PM by people who didn't want to post in the threads themselves.

But I think this forum is - by my experiences at least - the exception rather than the rule.

Steve

[klank]

I agree very much with what Steve has said.

I know this sounds "off topic" a bit - but bear with me -

His comments about the attitude of schools is (probably) correct.
A great friend of mine is the "Tech" teacher at our local comprehensive (former Grammar) school. It has a fully equipped workshop for both metal and woodworking but he is so angry and frustrated that he is not allowed to utilise it for hands-on students' projects - H and S rules again.
I too used to fly RC aircraft. About ten years ago, I managed to get my eldest son (then aged 13) to "have a go" and with him built an RC powered glider.
When he told his schoolfriends, he was villified as a "nerd/anorak" etc. Totally uncool to make things like that. His pleasure at simple bench work dwindled away.
So this is (probably) not an isolated example. A generation of youngsters get little encouragement to use their hands and imagination in practical things. The only bright spot seems to be biking - BMX/Mountain biking. It IS cool to modify/soup up your bike as a teenager - learn some simple tool skills.
Even if a youngster can overcome these difficulties, and wants to learn engineering as a pass-time - still more problems. The jargon is almost incomprehensible (but necessary) to a newbie. The cost of setting up can be prohibitive until you are earning good money and have no other responsibilities (family etc.). All been said before.
In my generation ('50's) - as a youngster it WAS cool to read the Meccano magazine and make "stuff" with tools and simple procedures. I would have given anything to have had access to a bench and a small vice and some hand tools - no supportive family or friends then. But it WAS normal for boys, then, to do that.

Hence the ME catered for that market then.

I was very fortunate to have been given over 400 back issues of the ME from two kindly "senior" model engineers.
I only took up this hobby about 18 months ago - never touched a lathe before. I learned a lot by reading.
I spent two weeks going through every back issue (these mags went back to the 60's - most from the '80's and '90's).
I have made a simple database on my PC of all the "interesting" articles/plans/projects and hints/tips which would help me - a newbie.
Nearly 300 of them.

When I started this hobby, I also placed an order for ME and MEW magazines.
Comparing todays ME's with those back issues I was given - the number of "useful" articles for a newbie is minimal over the last 18 months.

MEW has proved to be a much better source of info and simple projects.

Looking at last years ME magazines, the numbers of articles/projects of ALL types overall is very small compared to those of the '80's and 90's. Much of the mag is "filler", exhibitions and the like - much smaller quantity of practical stuff.
There is far more useful practical information to find on the net in various places (including the USA).
I appreciate the ME can only print what articles it gets - but for newbies - in its current guise, I feel that the ME is not much use - compared to a couple of decades ago. If it wishes to appeal to those who are not seasoned/well equipped and experienced model engineers it must change.
People like Harold Hall and Stan Bray do write very well for newbies. More articles at that level would make a tyro engineer feel that it might be within their experience to have a go - get the juices flowing!
We cannot all afford a Myford - far eastern machinery (new) may well be the only option - the fiscal pressures today are severe for many.
Don't stop writing for the long established engineer - just write a bit extra for us?

There is a club in the wider area to me - you cannot hold up your head there if you don't have a Myford and have made a locomotive or traction engine from scratch - not a very welcoming atmosphere for a newbie. More a "private society".
Another local club - fabulous - all friendly and falling over themselves with advice and practical help - more the norm I would think.
Much like this web site.

ME - Why not re-publish those hints/tips short articles again from those engineers who have so much to pass on? Put them on a DVD by all means - newbies/youngsters are a redy made market for them.

I was reminded what the word "amateur" meant recently. "He's only an amateur - not a true artist" I heard in conversation. From the Latin (now there's an elitist thought) meaning "love". Amateurs do it for the love of it. We do create art in our own way. And its lovely!

[Workshopshed]

Will the survey be published in the magazine? If so which issue? It would be nice to see how many MEs are in each part of the country.

[alanstepney]

I just read the posts by Steve and Peter (Klank) and all I can do is shake my head in wonder.

It terrifies me that we now have a generation who are so poorly equipped to cope with a major part of the "real world".
Having spent time in many so-called third world countries, the attitude is so different in many, so these are the places that will grow, whilst we fall farther behind.

Oh well, I fear I am getting off topic!

Nevertheless, it is a good indication of one area that ME / MEW can address.

[Deleted]

No wonder people like you and me are in demand as a local 'Mr Fixit'!
JB

[drumkilbo]

I too shook my head in disbelief, mainly at schools having all that workshop machinery that nobody is allowed to use for 'elf 'n safety reasons. I did a year of metalwork at school [1972]to fill up my timetable for the last year and it opened up a whole new world to me. What chance nowadays do youngsters get in that field?

Ian.