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Post by drjohn on Jan 27, 2009 11:27:15 GMT
Oh dear Who's talking about a bloody great bandsaw - get a little one and put it on a trolley with wheels, then you can move it into the living room when you need the space ! ;D dr-john.org/images-web/lathe/smaller/cleanup 003.jpg[/img] And on the subject of "move it into the living room", the most important acquisition for any model engineer is to ditch the liberated western woman and marry an Asian girl - all problems solved!! ;D
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Post by dickdastardly40 on Jan 27, 2009 12:46:33 GMT
Steve,
My £0.02.....
Before you buy lots of expensive and potentially 'unusable in the early days' equipment, i would say, first you have to decide what you would like to build.
To qualify the above, unless it is a screaming deal don't spend the money until required unless you need it now. Small parts can be made on larger machinery but not vice versa, then again if you only intend to build small things there is no need to spend the extra.
Firstly again IMHO, and not how I did it, you need a good bench or benches either built yourself or acquired at a good height following the good advice given by others above. It will need to be rigidly mounted especially close to where you mount the vice to prevent flexing when sawing etc. If you can, plan more bench space than you think you can possibly use, it soon fills. Old kitchen worktops make very good bench tops. Kitchen base unit cupboards are not necesarily rigid enough unless you re-engineer them. Scaffold boards can make a good top too.
Plan in lots of power sockets (doubles) have the workshop circuit fed from it's own RCD MCCB. I have a double socket on the ceiling joist in the middle of my garage workshop so I can have the workmate set in the middle and not trip over leads or plug in the hoover and reach everywhere.
Have lots of flourescent lighting (Wilkinsons about £8 for a 4' strip) and if possible natural lighting. Incandescent task lighting can be moved from place to place and plug in the extra outlet.
Plan in lots of storage, shelving, drawers etc. Aldi or Lidl often have 'bins' which hang on a rack which are ideal for nuts, bolts etc.
Try and have a 'notice board' where you can hang the plans for the component you are working on to save thumbing the drawing with dirty fingers, have a whiteboard for working out dimensions, job plan, to do list.
Make sure you have a good door mat to prevent tracking swarf into the house, Mrs Steve may be less sympathic to your new hobby if she finds keeps finding swarf springs in the shagpile. You may change footwear before transiting to the house, others may not.
You said the floor is sorted, hopefully it is easy to sweep and a colour which shows up dropped components.
When you know how big you want to build and have an idea of which machinery best suits you can plan your layout, leave space around the machinery for a working envelope, cleaning, maintenance and also to get stock through the headstock of the lathe, so dont have the left hand against a wall.
A word on Myfords, a good one is accurate, repeatable and versatile. It will also likely be second hand, expensive and sometimes frustrating. I have an older one with drip feed oiler, an imperial QC box but no power cross feed, which I wish it did. I don't believe they are rare and the price is less now than say 3 years ago. If your budget will stand it, consider a Colchester Chipmaster, Boxford as an alternative or a new 'Chinese' lathe with variable speed, Inch Metric box and power cross feed.
I have a 'cheap and nasty' 25 litre 10.5 CFM air compressor bought with a host of accessories which has proved invaluable for drilling, grinding and general blowing.
I hope I am at an end of my capital purchases, but buying the bits and pieces never stops. Ask a number of muddle engineers and you'll get a number of answers. I hope the above is useful.
Al
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Post by Staffordshirechina on Jan 27, 2009 13:44:43 GMT
DJ, I think my wife has something similar to your saw for cutting meat on Sundays?
Les
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Post by engineernut on Jan 27, 2009 19:34:50 GMT
Bandsaws can save you apart from a lot of hard work money also. Last week I purchased a 3 foot length of steel 3" x 2" for £6. Cutting this up into suitable / manageable pieces is effortless and think what a small piece of steel would cost. ;D
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Post by 2tenths on Jan 27, 2009 20:42:04 GMT
Hi NOT a purchase but something that I have found handy in the workshop........Ladies dress hangers (the ones with the sprung clip at each end) Children's sizes will carry A4 drawings and the more mature sizes will carry your larger drawings. Beauty of these is that you can hang them on any sticky out thingy anywhere in the workshop and all for free Can't claim it's an original but it works for me. Tony
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PH
Seasoned Member
Posts: 112
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Post by PH on Jan 28, 2009 6:25:54 GMT
Something I regret not having done is building a second bench, particularly as I have the space and I had the material. A bench at waist height is fine for assembling parts, silver soldering small(ish) parts, accurate filing, etc, but is too high for serious hacksawing or filing. If you don't have a mill or a bandsaw you will do a lot of both!
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Post by ripslider on Jan 28, 2009 20:58:05 GMT
Thanks for all the advice so far. I'm sorry I haven't posted in reply until now, I have been out of the country for a day or so. OK - I've had multiple reads of what has been suggested - and thank you for all the replies. Now I have a rough Stage One plan, and then a whole load of questions about stage Two. Just becuase it came up a couple of times - the intial purpose of having a workshop is to build up a second skill set. I want to do something with my hands after spending all day fiddling with computer code. Initially I'm going to teach myself the basic skills - and it looks like I may have found a teacher as well. <hurrah - should make life easier. I pay his gas bill, he teaches me machining and small scale engineering - seems like a fair deal> So part of my time will be the rawest of basics - filing. Marking out. cutting. Using calipers. Grinding etc etc. Then on to lathe work, and then on to milling and more advanced stuff. initial aims are fairly scattered. I would like to build my own model aeroplane engine. i would also like to build a pop-pop and sterling engine - just static ones. Then I would REALLY like to build a working steam power plant for a model boat. And - and I blame this board entirely for this - the eventual aim would be a working 5" steam engine. I know I'll deviate from this path, but it seems a fair route to plan for, and it's a learning step each time. OK - so on to my plans. This is what I *think* are my next steps. But if anything is silly, please comment. Step 1 Air flow. I think I want to add a decent heater, and a good extractor system into my workshop. Even just making model boats, the amount of dust and muck I produce is prodigious, so I'm really liking the idea of one of those centralised vacuam cleaner units that also act as a good dust extractor. It's not got a lot of "wow" factor, but I think it will be very practical. Step 2 - Bench. The thing my father was most proud of in his workshop was a very solid english oak bench - and a very big one. I went to look at the price of buying enough oak to make a very big bench, and promptly fell of my chair in shock. However, it would seem that an excellent alternative is available in the form of Hornbeam - also called Iron Wood. Apparently it is that tough it is best cut using metal cutting saws, but it is used mostly as fire wood, and so far cheaper. My friend and I are borrowing his van at the weekend to go and get supplies. Step 3: Vice. My dad had a big six inch vice with a sprung bar underneath it. this had the effect that it wasn't possible to over-tighten the vice, and also, if you sqeezed the bar, you could slide the vice in and out rather than having to spin the handle. I am trying to find one of these, but they don't seem to be made any more - does anyone know where I can get one? One poster suggested i have a smaller, more accurate vice. This seems sensible, but I'm not sure what I'm looking for here. What do you chaps think? Step 4: storage. It seems that I can't have too much. So this weekend see's me shooting off to rescue a friend of a friends unloved kitchen set from the scrap heap. I've also waved my little plastic pal at the nice people at Facom and they are sending me some tool chests. Step 5: hand tools: I was already in the process of swapping over to a better set of tools in general, so my little plastic pal, along with my friends little plastic pal, has had a chat with the computers at Facom and Snap-on and the computers have promised to send us a big box full of goodies. I have three questions about hand tools: 1) Files - I'm not sure where to get files from - I also am not really sure what to get as a basic set. I'm thinking a set of three full sized and a set of 3 half sized? fine, medium and coarse of each? 2) Hammers - I had a look at the Footprint catalouge, and at least half of the entire book was hammers. I had no idea there were so many designs. I'm now a bit confused on what to get. Can anyone advise? 3) Father-of-Mrs-Steve, an ex-pattern maker and generally very scary chap - insists that I need a set of metal-cutting chisels - becuase "that's what people who do things properly use". However, in the days of milling machines and good saws, I can't see a real need for them. What do you chaps think? I can only find one source of them and based on their price I think that are made of solid gold so would rather hold off if practical. Step 6: marking out I already have most of the measuring stuff I need. However, both man-who-will-teach-me-the-basics and Father-of-Mrs-Steve strongly suggest that a surface plate is in order. Father-of-Mrs-Steve has also provided me with a set of tools to go with said plate, although currently they look fiendishly complex and I have no idea what half of them do. I can get granite and glass surface plates fairly easily but lots of my newly donated goodies have magnetic bases. I can find cast iron surface plates, but they are not especially big. However, I'm not planning on doing especially big work. Any advice here? Worth the effort? If so, cast iron or glass or granite? Pillar drill: I'm looking for a floor standing one. The cheapest I have found if £59. The most expensive is £670. This seems a vast difference in price for essentially the same tool. Can anyone help me narrow down my choices? I *think* I want a 5 speed belt driven drill that will take a 13mm chuck and drills fairly straight holes. So that probably rules out the cheapest drills, but am I right in thinking I don't need to go crazy with a pillar dill? The vice that goes onto the plate on the drill is also causing me pause for thought. I can see one for £12, and one of exactly the same dimensons for £110. Again, I could do with some guidance on what is "good enough" - I'm assuming the difference in price is precision? OK - so, this post is very long as it is, but I wonder if I could ask a couple of questions about band saws and lathes? Bandsaws: I can get one of these saws from Chester Ltd ( www.chesteruk.net/store/h110_bandsaw.htm ) second hand at a good price. Would this make a good choice? Lathes:seeing as I'm going to spend a while learning the basics, and it will be a long time before I'm master machinist quality, I'm not sure what features I should look for on a lathe and what are "nice to haves". Do I, for example, need a left handed screw cutting system? Do I need a transverse powerfeed? Is an interlocking chuck guard worth paying extra for? I think there are two parts to this question - I'm unsure of what these features actually mean - or more probably I don't understand the terminology but understand the actual features. Is there anywhere where I can go to read up on all of this so I can figure out what I think I will need? I guess the other option is just to follow the herd. I.e lots of people seem to say that a Myford M7 or Super 7 make good lathes for a model engineer. So I guess that if I follow this route I will make for an easier choice? OK - this post if far too big, so I will finish it now. Many thanks for your comments so far, and thanks in advance for any more. Steve
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Post by dickdastardly40 on Jan 29, 2009 9:13:39 GMT
My comments on your comments ;D Heater: Good idea also try and keep humitity under control to prevent your very expensive tools and hard manufactured components from going rusty. I have a cylinder vacuum from Wickes, it's always out so a centralised one may work nicely for you. Bench: I think you are on the right track, but a you only need the bench top to be hard wearing. The frame can be pine or even dexion as long as it is strongly constructed IMHO. Vices: A couple of varying size is a good call, keep an eye out on Ebay or surplus sales for the big record 6" with the slide jaw. J&L also sell vices. www.jlindustrial.co.uk/cgi/insrhmHave a couple of sets of bolt holes drilled in the bench so you can turn it through 90 degrees or have it on the end of a bench so you can work from another direction Hand tools: Files: These can be got from an old fashioned hardware store if you have one or mail/e order from Axminster www.axminster.co.uk/or J&L. I wouldn't get too many. Chisels: I was taught how to chisel as an apprentice, I have on many occasions split big nuts by hand but haven't cut a keyway or an oil groove since taught. I wouldn't bother unless you want to learn, it'll also mean you won't need a big hammer. Hammer: see above. Ball pein are generally what is used in engineering, I would get a light toffee on for marking out and a medium one for general air cooled adjustment requirements. As well get a dead blow or plastic mallet for drawbars and when you don't want the surface to be marked. Marking out: I have never used magnetic bases on a surface plate as I usually slide the height guage or surface guage. Granite plates are fairly cheap and don't rust. Pillar drill: The more expensive ones should be more powerful and have better bearings with less run out. The castings may be better meaning the table will be flatter and when it says 0 deg angle on the tilt it'll be 0 deg. If you have a notion to buy a milling machine with a quill, this'll negate the need for an expensive pillar. I have a cheapy (£5 from ebay) as sometimes you just want to punch some vertical holes and the mill is set up for something else. Drilling vices: You're right the difference is precision and quality of manufacture. I have a cheapy drill vice and a relatively expensive mill vice. It comes down to what you want to hold, how you want to hold it and how accurate do you need to be? Bandsaws: If you'r gonna cut up stock etc it'll be worth it, I have use of one which has a vertical mode which was very useful. Get a cheap saw but buy the better blades as the blade that comes with them are 'usually' rubbish. Lathe: Left handed screw cutting will likely come as standard no matter what lathe. All this means is that the saddle moves from left to right when the chuck is spinning forwards Transverse power feed, definitley get it, it will make facing or milling in the lathe so much easier Interlocking guard, the chances are that ex-training establishment machines will have these. How safety concious are you? Train yourself not to touch the chuck unless the power is off, Wear goggles or glasses and have a moveable splash screen and you may not need it. If children are going to use the lathe, it may be worth it. Myfords?: as I said before, caveat emptor, they can be good or bad. There are lots of accessories available and lots of aftermarket stuff. They have a screwed chuck so care is required if you run in reverse. Power cross feed ones fetch a premium. Hope this helps Al
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Post by rodwilson on Jan 29, 2009 10:35:06 GMT
One of my benches is fitted with a joiners vice. I have various other items fitted to timber blocks or posts, including an engineers vice and small anvil, This means all can be securely positioned but I can adjust both height and working angle. It is the anvil that is on the post so that forces are transferred to the floor. Works well for me.
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Post by Workshopshed on Jan 31, 2009 13:23:14 GMT
Additional thoughts: Bench - Have a shelf or cupboard underneath and put all of your heavy things in it. Then when you are sawing or filing the bench will stay put. Alternativly, bolt it to the floor. Small Hammer - Sounds like a good lathe exercise to me. Turning, cross drilling, taper turning, rounded ends and knurling. Small one can be made from Ali with plastic or brass faces. I found this one oneline the other day, it looks very similar to the ones the Mechys made at Dowty www.projectsinmetal.com/free-project-plan-soft-faced-hammer/
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Post by drjohn on Jan 31, 2009 15:52:29 GMT
;D ;D ;D Poor ripslider, he's gonna end up with a workshop so cluttered with tools he won't have room to do anything!
Rip - just go for the absolute basics for the project you want to make, and as the need arises, buy the appropriate tool for the job.
Hand-me-downs from relatives are only usually handed down because they're no bloody use to the down-hander!
Do you think for a moment I'd hand you down my Westlake mill (The proper Chinese Warco Major) - no way! But if you want me to sing the praises and hand you down my Chizhou Family 3-in-one lathe/mill/drill, if you were mug enough to get 3 guys to lug the 180 kilo piece of junk to make room in my workshop for a decent lathe, then take it away! Get my drift?
DJ
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Post by ripslider on Feb 3, 2009 22:50:40 GMT
Hello all.
Many thanks again for the all the advice.
A trip today to the not very local tool shop led to a discussion about Proxxon lathes, and tools as a whole.
The hardened engineer types who were in the shop ( it's one of those places where you get a cup of tea, chat about the old days and spend 2 hours talking about files with a big group of people ) seemed to be very much in favour of Proxxon accross the entire range, which was suprising as it is eastern made rather than Brit. However, the chaps who seemed in the know ( customers rather than shop assistants ) didn't really have a bad word to say about them.
I've had a look in the catalouge - they seem a little small, and vastly cheaper than comparable "well-loved-makes" such as Myford etc, so I am wondering if I am missing something?
The other make I was wondering if I could poll opinion on is Wabro. - accorss things like lathes, milling machines and drill presses. I have been doing some reading, and Wabro seem to polarise opinion - I have read some glowing reviews, and some awful reviews, but nothing much in between.
What do you chaps thing of them? Or what have you hear of them?
Many thanks once again
Steve
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Post by dickdastardly40 on Feb 4, 2009 9:24:02 GMT
Steve,
Is your local tool store in Salisbury?
John (Simply loco) has some proxxon equipment, he may be able to better inform you as to their ability, the work envelope seems quite limited but if you only want to make small stuff, why not.
Regards Myfords, something to bear in mind is that for many years they were the lathe of choice for ME as they were almost the only choice. They have been around in sheds and workshops for upwards of 50 years; there are many attachments, both OEM and home made available including a dividing head, milling slides, turret conversions as well as a whole raft of tweaks and upgrades written about them in the ME press. With this in mind it is not surprising that they are 'well loved' as many models have been made solely on them. They became the mainstay of the ME crowd, I believe, because the cheap Chinese invasion (which is perhaps also the reason for a 'renaissance' in machining) hadn't started.
What you have to also bear in mind is their limitations (in the most part the most modern have addressed some failings):
They only swing 7" The bore through the spindle is only 5/8" The chuck is screwed Some have no power x feed Metric screw cutting conversion needs extra attachments rather than in the gearbox. Under powered and not the most rigid Though the minimum resolution on a standard cross slide is 0.001" this is radius not diameter.
I like mine, it is accurate and repeatable, but I am aware of the limitations.
When you say Wabro, do you mean Warco? They sell chinese manufacured 'clones' that are also for sale by various other vendors. My VMC mill was second hand from them and I can recommend their customer service. Their showroom has a fair representation of all the stuff they sell and what sort of quality to expect. Axminster, Chester, ARC Eurotrade and Engineers Toolroom all sell basically the same eqpt but in slightly different paint or packages.
If I had the money and desire to change my lathe, I would like:
1 1/2" Spindle bore 10-12" swing 36" between centres 2-3 HP Metric/Imperial screwcutting gearbox Power crossfeed VFD variable speed drive with backgear for low speed torque. T slotted saddle Collet chuck
If i could get that in an older second hand 'branded' make, I probably would, but the chances are that I'd have to go new chinese.
Hope this helps in some way.
Al
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2009 10:16:43 GMT
Steve. I have two Proxxon machines, a BFW40/E Mill/Drill, and a power fret saw. The former is brilliant, the latter useless for anything more than making dolls' houses out of plasticard!
The mill/drill is now over £500, but tremendously versatile, and like most light machinery is capable of realising objectives provided you are not too ambitious with it. I do most of my light milling on it, and all of my drilling, tapping and polishing. The co-ordinate table is accurate to .05mm, and the speed is variable from 900-6000 rpm, so get out your number drills! I've looked at the Proxxon lathe, and it is certainly well made. It is expensive, and the accessories even more so. There are perhaps cheaper alternatives around. Taking Al's comments on board, and I know I have an axe to grind, but my Emco MaximatV10P satisfies most of his criteria if you are happy with a spindle bore size of 20mm, and the thing is accurate in every sense! No fettling required! They come up for sale from time to time, and represent very good value when compared with a certain English stalwart. One of the members was selling an EMCO Compact 8 recently, a very useful machine for beginner and experienced user alike. I can recommend either machine, and they both accept a properly made (and very useful) milling/drilling head.. Please PM me if you need any more info. JB
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dva
Seasoned Member
Posts: 110
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Post by dva on Feb 4, 2009 14:28:38 GMT
ripslider,
re, ... in favour of Proxxon accross the entire range, which was suprising as it is eastern made rather than Brit. ...
I have a Proxxon TBM 220 drill, and I believe it was made in Germany.
Can anyone confirm this ?
Dave
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miner
Seasoned Member
Posts: 122
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Post by miner on Feb 9, 2009 8:01:12 GMT
I strongly advise that the very first tools to buy for your workshop would be books. With a decent selection of books pertaining to what your interested in over time your brain will become the most vesitile and powerfull tool in your workshop. (Google TEE PUBLISHING) Some very good and not expensive books on lathe and milling work. The more you know and understand then you will be much more able to make inteligent decisions on what you require in the way of equipment.
That said after the purchase of a lathe ,mill ,bandsaw, bench, ect you will need an assortment of measuring tools, and cutting tools. 0-1 in. micrometer 0-6 in. dial calipers 0-1in. dial indicator, Accurate 0-6 in.or 0-12 in. scale
Cutting Tools Drills center drills Lathe tool bits, high speed steel, Braised carbide, or replacable tip toolholders Reamers- These can be bought as required Faceplate Three jaw chuck Independant four jaw chuck Drill chuck and arbour for lathe tailstock Lathe tool holder or quick change tool holders
Milling machine An ACCURATE MILLING VICE Hold down set to fit mill tee slots, This consists of tee nutc, bolts, strap clamps,step blocks ect. drills, See above used on lathe End mills two flute and four flute, Buy center cutting end mills fly cutter and tool bits ACCURATE paralles, these are used in the mill vice to set the work above the vice bed and allow thru holes and machineing without hitting the vice below the work boring head and cutting tools, This allows you to machine very accurate ROUND holes that are as straight as your mill is aligned, and at any size within the limits of the boring head, Drill bits DO NOT drill perfectly round or straight holes Rotary table with dividing plates, this can be bought later when or if required.
You may buy cheaper quality chinese made machine tools or something far better but very seldom do you read just how important it is to level and align the lathe or tram the mill head to be dead true to the mill table, and align the mill vice to be true to the table travel. Any machine shop that buys a new machine tool does as the fist step , bolt the machine down on a rigid surface, concrete for example. the second step is to properly align that tool to be as true as possible. Only then would they start useing it With the fairly lightly built machine tools the average hobbiest buys this is even more important. I own a EMCO compact 5 lathe and can align it to turn within .0002 of an inch over 12 inches. (not on a consistant basis ) It does go out of alignment due to the wood floor under it. But I own top quality Mitutoyo digital micrometers and can reliably measure to very fine limits.
This is getting far longer than I intended but one more thing, DO NOT BUY LESS THAN THE VERY BEST QUALITY you can afford when your buying measuing tools, cutting tools, taps, dies, mill vices ect. Yes they are expensive, But if you stay in this hobby they end up being well worth it. Better to cry once about the price than cry every time you use a tool because it is not dependable or does not last.
Pete
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Post by spamcanman on Feb 9, 2009 16:31:59 GMT
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Post by Workshopshed on Feb 9, 2009 17:49:11 GMT
I strongly advise that the very first tools to buy for your workshop would be books. Good point, I did buy a lot of books early on, several of the workshop practice series and also "the amateur lathe"
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miner
Seasoned Member
Posts: 122
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Post by miner on Feb 9, 2009 20:41:46 GMT
Workshopshed: Then you are off to a very good start,Also ask questions about any thing you don't fully understand, Here and any place else you can think of. THERE ARE NO STUPID QUESTIONS if you don't know, you don't know. I've found most people that do machining as a hobby will help anyone with questions and will not knowingly give you a incorrect answer. This hobby is a very complicated subject and no one will ever learn it all,In my opionion that's what makes it so interesting. But it does take a large comittment in time,money,ect.
One thing I forgot to list in my first post was mill collets to fit your mill spindle. When or if you buy a milling machine try and get a R-8 spindle taper as this is a industrial taper invented by bridgeport and there is a huge amount of tools avalible for this taper and not as many for morse taper no.2 or morse taper no.3, Plus the R-8 taper is a lot easier to release from the spindle taper than a morse taper, so you do far less pounding on the drawbar to release it, Hammering on the end of a drawbar with a hammer is very hard on the spindle bearings and a decent milling machine has what most would consider very expensive matched bearings. one problem is that in the smaller mills the R-8 taper is not avalible but for the seig X2? mill LITTLE MACHINE SHOP in the states offer a conversion kit for this mill to go from MT3 to R-8 taper, This looks to be a fairly simple bolt in prosess.
Pete
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2009 22:17:25 GMT
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