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Post by ripslider on Jan 26, 2009 0:42:36 GMT
Hello all. Second post of the night - and second post in total. I apologies in advance for asking too many questions, but Mrs Steve is starting to nag me about sorting out my workshop, and so I am obeying orders! Ok - so I am the most green of newbies to the world of model engineering. I make model boats and planes, and I am not awful with the DIY etc, but I have no training - although my post in General Chat is aimed at sorting that out. My aim is to become at least acceptable in the world of fabrication - there is probably an end goal of making model trains but I am not admitting that to myself or Mrs Steve currently.... I have just moved house, and with it has come a double garage which has been set aside for "messy stuff". I have sorted out the floor, insulated it and re-roofed it, so now I have a warm dry box. It's this I want to turn into a workshop. My question is - what do I fill it with? This isn't just big things, such as "lathe", but the smaller things - benches, vices, shelves etc etc. What I'm really looking for is what worked and what didn't work for you, and also some guidance in where I can afford to buy cheap, and what is really worth spending money on. Which tools/equipment should I begin with. Which brands would you recommend? If it helps, in terms of normal DIY/fixing the car sort of tools, I used to buy cheap and cheerful chinese tools, but I'm now in the process of swapping to more robust stuff. It seems to me a false economy to buy a cheap tool which breaks and is replaced repeatedly rather than a decent tool. So I am now changing to Facom and SnapOn mainly for DIY/hand tools. I would like to carry on the same thinking with the model engineering. If a Myford lathe costs more, but will last much better than a chinese import and I can always get spares for it, I'll save and wait for that. I think the things I "think" I need to kick off with currently are: - a good bench - although I'm not really sure what I'm looking for - good quality hand tools - any suggestions on what the first batch should be? - A good vice - although to get one similar to my fathers ( a 6" with a slide action ) it looks like I need to take out a small mortgage!! - storage - I'm thinking of kitchen cabinets - any issues here - should I get something more robust? - pillar drill - no idea of good makers/what I should look for and avoid - lathe - It would seem a Myford Super 7 is the "perfect" lathe to get? But then these seem to be hugely rare. Should I look at alternatives? If so, are there any other well loved makes? Many thanks indeed Steve
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Post by drjohn on Jan 26, 2009 3:15:31 GMT
Hi Steve, and welcome to this strange world of semi-professionals who know almost everything, and completely self taught idiots like myself.
Like you, I used to make model R/C planes, then one day about 35 years ago, I was given a small, ancient and well worn Drummond type round bed lathe. Soon upgraded to a Myford 7R and having wasted a lot of materials on an ancient and inaccurate pillar drill, bought one from Warco (The China of the UK)
A very second hand Pallas milling machine came my way and served me well for what I couldn't mill in the vertical slide on the Myford.
Vice - yes, a hefty one and a more accurate small one.
Hand tools, drills, mills etc, just buy as you need - don't fall for the "Set of number drills" you'll spend a bomb and only use about 3 of them in your life!
The one thing I see as a glaring omission is a bandsaw - especially one that can be used as a vertical or just a cut-off - again Warco do some reasonable ones - go for the 1/2" blade - you can buy that easily in rolls and make your own.
Bench - in my utopic early days in the UK I built one out of 6" x 4" pine - right down the whole length of the garage wall - never really used it, I worked mainly on an old kitchen cabinet placed in the middle of the workshop so I could go round all sides of what I was doing!
Now I'm constrained to a small back bedroom in my rented house in Malaysia - you can see the stuff I've accumulated over the 3 years I've been making a Simplex if you go to my website. The benches I made from two thicknesses of 1/2" marine ply with hardwood legs - Incidentally, the HEIGHT of the bench is very important if you don't want chronic backache! I'm 6' tall and I made the benches 38" high - a very comfortable height for an arthritic old fart like I now am!
Good luck.
DJ
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Post by Staffordshirechina on Jan 26, 2009 9:02:59 GMT
A couple of basics for you. As DJ says, bench height is important. When you stand at a vice with your arms at your sides, bend one arm at the elbow to horizontal. That should be the height of the top of your vice. A bench grinder should be one of your first buys. A decent Chinese one is fine. Make up some proper adjustable tilting rests for it and maybe get a drill grinding jig. Then whatever you buy next, at least you can sharpen tools for it. A 6" digital measuring caliper would be useful too.
Returning to your other post about clubs. Many clubs have auctions and/or regular sales tables of unwanted and bereavement items. You can pick up many top quality handtools for a song. Also as your face gets known in the club, folk will offer you items too. Generally they are friendly even if they don't always look it!
It is difficult to tell someone how to set up a workshop as it is a very personal thing depending on your intended direction. However, if you keep asking specific questions here people will help.
Les
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Post by drjohn on Jan 26, 2009 10:55:10 GMT
As Les says, if you buy a Chinese grinder make sure you can get replacement wheels for it - I've bought 2 Yingtong grinders a 5" and a 6" but the 5" wheels are not available and the 6" ones are half as thick again as the originals and foul the guards. ... But then I live in a 5th world backwater. DJ
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steam4ian
Elder Statesman
One good turn deserves another
Posts: 2,069
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Post by steam4ian on Jan 26, 2009 11:25:04 GMT
G'day Steve
Learn by my mistakes.
Get a good vise (vice). Make sure the jaws line up absolutrly square even when gripping an uneven object; make sure the screw has an even feel about it without stiffness at any point in its rotation.
The pillar drill. Best bet is to get a floor mounted pillar type not a bench mounted type. When testing at the vendor's move the quill down off the top stop and see if you can wiggle it at any point on its stroke. Most cheaper drill presses fall down in this respect so that as you put pressure on the drill bit it moves; this is a recipe for absolute frustration. One guide is the legth of the housing relative to the diameter of the quill. For best result the length of the housing enclosing the quill should be at least 5 times the diameter of the quill at any point in the stroke.
IMHO I would not get a grinder under 8" (200mm) any thing else is a toy.
AFTER THIS you need to seriously think about WHAT DO YOU WANT TO MAKE? To build Gauge 1 means that smaller machines can be used and may even be better. If going for 71/4" then you need serious capability, look at Dr John's mill and lathe. It you get into horology then a watchmakers lathe is the ticket. Thereis a saying "you can never have too much lathe". But Bigger machines look attractive but note how the price of tooling multiplies say a 4' chuck vs a 6" chuck, then think about collets for 3MT vs 5MT.
I bought a 7x12 lathe when really a 9" lathe would have been a better size for my future plans. At the time I bought what I could afford and what I could put in my shed. I am enjoying the little 7x12 but it will not be my ultimate machine, its replacement is already sitting in my son's shed waiting on some TLC.
Regards, Ian
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Post by Workshopshed on Jan 26, 2009 13:15:30 GMT
My top 3 workshop items are:
1) Sturdy bench 2) Plenty of storage 3) See 1 and 2
Without these you won't have anywhere to work and will spend more time moving things around or trying to find things than making things.
My bench is made from 19mm exterior ply, I've also heard people using OSB as it's cheaper and just as strong and suitable for outside use. The difference is just the surface finished. My bench is painted with "Garage floor" paint which is hardwearing and easy to clean. I used 24mm square timber for the legs and I would suggest trying something heavier than that to reduce movement when sawing and filing. If I had the money/space I'd probably get one of the heavy metal benches from Machinemart.
Like Dr John I do find that having a smaller bench that I can move around is useful. I use a cheaper draper workmate which can be packed away when not in use.
The kitchen units might be good enough for storage but be aware that if they are chipboard they will be vulnerable to the damp.
A centre drill, safety googles, pillar drill (good for DIY jobs too) would be my essentials. I also have a small (toy?) grinder and a relatively small lathe with a 80mm chuck that I bought second hand. N.B. If you go too small on the lathe then the price starts going back up again.
If you want to get into fabrication then some clamps to hold things in place while you weld/solder/braze them would be a good start and some welders gloves.
One of my first purchases was a fire extinguisher and you should think about spending some money on getting your electrics and lights sorted out.
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Post by Laurie_B on Jan 26, 2009 13:42:31 GMT
A selection of hand tools would be good too-files,saws,try squares,punches,scribers,toolmakers clamps and so on. Something I've found very useful for marking out has been a surface plate and a vernier height gauge with a scribing tip.Makes for easy and accurate marking out,especially if you have an angle plate too. As workshopshed suggests,you could need some heating equipment for soldering/brazing and a small brazing hearth might be a good idea too.
Laurence.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2009 16:18:35 GMT
Steve. Somewhat frivolous, I know, but I was chatting in the pub with a man I know slightly:he worked on the McLaren Mercedes carbon panels at British Aerospace in Hamble. He has just been laid off, I was sorry to hear, but the subject of hobbies came up. "I've got a lovely set of needle files you can have" says he, "They'll cost you a pint!". He brought them over yesterday: a Senator 12 piece set, in a roll case, with handles!! Out of curiosity I looked them up: rec. retail £55! I pushed him, but he doesn't want any more for them. It's not what you know....... JB
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Post by Workshopshed on Jan 26, 2009 16:38:10 GMT
It's not what you know....... I got my lathe in a similar manner, I was having a chat to one of my colleagues and he mentioned an elderly relative was selling it off. I paid a reasonable price for it and the previous owner was glad to see it go to a good home. It was kindly delivered to me and my colleague even carried it into the shed for me!
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Post by Workshopshed on Jan 26, 2009 16:43:17 GMT
you could need some heating equipment for soldering/brazing and a small brazing hearth might be a good idea too. You can get specialist blocks for this but I've just used thermalite bricks from a builders merchant. It's a bit crumbly but is a very good insulator and seems to be stable at high temperatures too. I've put some "solder mats" under my grinder to protect the bench from sparks.
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Post by engineernut on Jan 26, 2009 17:23:39 GMT
Apart from all the suggestions above I would seriously recommend a band saw (think this has only been mentioned once in replies so far). I purchased mine from Axminster Tools (probably the same as Warco etc sell) about 15 yrs ago. Absolutely brilliant and would not be without one. This has to be one of the most needed pieces of equipment after the lathe and mill.
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Post by Staffordshirechina on Jan 26, 2009 18:06:51 GMT
I'd also vote for a bandsaw quite early on. Would you like to cut this by hand?? Les
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Post by Workshopshed on Jan 26, 2009 18:17:51 GMT
I wouldn't even want to lift that, let alone saw it.
Any thoughts on a bandsaw vs a automatic hacksaw?
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Post by engineernut on Jan 26, 2009 18:48:49 GMT
I'd also vote for a bandsaw quite early on. Would you like to cut this by hand?? Les The best cut on my band saw, similar to your pic but cut through other direction, was when I was sold for a very good price a 5" dia piece of aluminium, about 18" in length. Just left in cutting in the bandsaw for I think it was about 1 hour at least to part a 1" section off Then had to cut again as your picture to get a suitable piece to mill. I dread to think how long that would have taken by hand???
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Post by engineernut on Jan 26, 2009 18:58:45 GMT
I wouldn't even want to lift that, let alone saw it. Any thoughts on a bandsaw vs a automatic hacksaw? I have no personal experience in operating an automatic hacksaw, but from what I have seen from a few I have seen running the Bandsaw will cut quicker and larger sizes. Obviously I am talking of model engineers versions and not industrial saws. Bandsaws are also, or were when I purchased mine, a lot cheaper.
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Post by Staffordshirechina on Jan 26, 2009 19:54:38 GMT
I had a 6" Rapidor power hacksaw before the bandsaw. Used it for about 20 years. When I started to make a 4" traction engine I sold it and got the bandsaw. They are far more versatile and the old saw took weeks to saw through big stuff. Most industrial workshops that I have seen use bandsaws now.
Les
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Post by tomol409 on Jan 26, 2009 20:29:45 GMT
No mention made of my favourite source of tooling - the local car boot sale. Over the years I have acquired a large amount of excellent tools and equipment at knock down cost. The average boot salesman usually hasn't a clue of the difference between carbon steel and high speed drills, taps, dies, milling cutters, and usually charges the same for each. Often the stuff comes from factory closures etc. I bought a box of assorted taps, dies, Moore & Wright marking equipment, stocks, tap wrenches etc for ten pounds. At a conservative estimate they were worth over £250. I got a brand new Burnerd 4in. 4-jaw chuck for £30 -- 15 years ago. Lots of model engineering jobs entail accurate cross-drilling of shafts, etc. Over 50 years many jigs have been shown in M.Eng. After a lot of thought I suddenly realised the answer to it all so far as small modelling is concerned is a 4-jaw self- centering chuck. I got one at Harrogate Model exhbition many years ago and it has been a boon to me. It can of course be used in lieu of a s.c chuck. Another neglected tool is the jenny caliper or odd-leg caliper. This is excellent for setting out centres and scribing lines parallel to an edge. Nowadays I use a Dremel hand drill a lot, with appropriate grinding burrs, diamond burrs, small grinding cut off discs, T.C drills, T.C milling cutters etc. These can all be used on toughened steel. Clones of the Dremel with sets of tooling can be had quite cheaply. Files- in addition to a good set of needle files, i would suggest a ten inch bastard for roughing out, a ten inch second cut, an eight inch bastard cut, and an eight inch smooth. Warding files (Thin files used for key cutting) are quite useful. Tomol.
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Post by jonkett on Jan 26, 2009 21:17:50 GMT
Golden rule #1 in model engineering.
There are no stupid questions only stupid answers
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ajsbsa
Involved Member
Steve Benson
Posts: 54
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Post by ajsbsa on Jan 27, 2009 8:20:18 GMT
I think the last thing I would want in my workshop is great big bandsaw to fall over every 5 minutes, managed with out one for the last 10 years. I have a couple of the new very ridgid hacksaws you can buy from your local B&Q one with a 24 teeth blade the other with a 18 tooth blade I will happily cut 50mm or even 75mm square MS bar with them. It does not take long to aquire the skill to cut quickly with little effort and its good exercise as well, spend the money saved on a really good vise instead. Steve
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2009 9:42:55 GMT
I think the last thing I would want in my workshop is great big bandsaw to fall over every 5 minutes, Agreed, Steve: where am I going to fit a bandsaw in an 8 x 12 workshop? The only time ever I needed a large lump sawn, I went round the corner to the local jobbing shop (yes, they still exist!) and it cost me a tin of Stella. The rest of the time, and I mean up to 2" diameter steel bar, I hacksaw it. If you're averse to hacksawing, a cheap and space saving device is a cut-off attachment for your angle grinder, although they make an awful mess! Regards JB
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