Boiler Testing. 5" Simplex.

[alanstepney]

Mar 26, 2009 21:19:50 GMT ripslider said:

Just out of interest::

what DOES it cost to get a boiler commercially certified?

And regarding insurance - what sort of type required? I'm guessing public liability insurance for £xmillion?

Steve

It is many years since I had a boiler tested commercially, but did watch a test being performed about a decade ago.
That cost the owner betwen £150 and £200.
I dont know if that is typical, or how much it would cost now, but it certainly makes the "club" system a bargain.

Public liability is usually for £2 million.

Again, another good reason to belong to your local model engineering society.

For those here who are not members of any club, for, typically, £25 a year, you get insurance for your engine(s) when at the club, when operating at any other club, or at club events: boiler testing; at some clubs, access to a well equipped workshop: various social events, talks, lectures etc: and, often advice and assistance from other members.

Wot a bargain!

[russell]

Almost makes it worth putting up with the cold damp weather in the UK

Russell.

[stantheman]

Andy. This is 'almost' the same, there are minor differences that appear in the 'Blue' version. Your comments about 'copyright' are being investigated almost as we speak.
Stan.

[stantheman]

Actually they may have tried to overcome the 'copyright' question by using the colour Red on the cover. This version is the current one available with the 'Blue' cover.

[mutley]

Hi Stan,
I thought they where the current version as they have the line about non CE marked comercal boilers not being suitable for testing.

Andy

[stantheman]

Yes it is the current version, just that they have some how or other got the cover in red instead of blue.

[albert]

Hello,
I will put the cat amongst the pigions-- my version of THE BOOK is
Revised Edition 2008 recieved last November and the cover is white.
It is genuine as it is Copywrite 2008 The British Model Engineering Liaison Group.
It was printed and distributed by Walker Midgley Insurance Brokers Ltd.
Each page has --Revision 1-November 2008 printed on it.
Albert.

[ripslider]

Sorry - another question.

I saw that someone had spent £1600 on a boiler, and I know a forum member has definately spent a minimum of £1,300 on a boiler.

That being quite a bit, if I'm going to spend that sort of money, then I won't find it much harder spending an additional £200 on a test as Mrs Steve will have already given me a rip-roarer for the boiler, so I'll be able to skim the test without much additional shouting.

Individual PLI isn't very expensive, especially for something with certificates and certified makers etc. - obviously not free, but copable with.

So here's my question:

My chum will build me a wonderful boiler out of the material of my choice - and he'll do it at mates rates which will be much easier on the pocket - lets say £250 + materials. He has, I believe, the correct certificates for welding pressure vessels.

So could I get said chum to build me a boiler in steel - using the dreaded TIG/MIG/MMA welding - and then run it at an event, as long as I have PLI and certificates from an independent tester? Because this seems to cover the issues raised, and still be significantly cheaper than getting a copper boiler made by someone a club approves of for £1,300.

I'm guessing that once again I'm missing something, but I'm not seeing what?

Thanks

Steve

[mutley]

Technically no. Paying anything for it would make it a comercial boiler and thus require a CE mark. under the rules you can only make a boiler for yourself.

[2tenths]

Hi all

Went through all this rigmarole many years ago. Can't give a date, perhaps late 70's, Ken Swan had just started marketing his Wren and I don't think the "Federations" had been formed, someone with a better memory than me will, I am sure put me right.

I had my own garden railway and was a little bit too far away from a local club. I had many of my boilers tested at Sheffield Testing Works, you told them the working pressure and the test pressure and they did the rest, I even silver soldered a small copper plate on the back head so that they could stamp the certificate number on it ;D. I cannot honestly remember the cost but it seemed reasonable at the time,

A friend of mine had part built Ken Swan's Wren (it was IIRC one of the first to be built) and was a little overcome by the cost of materials for a copper boiler, so he went down the steel route He spoke to Ken about it and Ken nearly spit all his biscuits into his tea ;D "You can't do that, it must have a copper boiler" etc etc. Long story short, built said boiler, all with certified materials, had it welded by a "friend" in a very modern welding factory who was coded up to his back teeth including titanium. I also think at that time that clubs did not allow steel boilers. Boiler was tested by the above company. Then my friend had a few health scares, couldn't manhandle the loco and it was sold.

This engine went on to run on the new Rotherham MES track and I believe was reboilered a few years ago because of a build up around the foundation ring, by all accounts the blow out holes were too far up the back head an did not let all the crud out.

Wanting to do the job properly (because as soon as a whistle blew, kids and their dads appeared from nowhere) IIRC I had my boiler insured through Cornhill Insurance.

We would be naughty boys now ;D Where's me CE stamp ;D

Tony

[stantheman]

At the moment I see no reason why these different colour jacketed books are around. I did think at one time they would all be the same to save any confusion amongst the different groups. If it has the words (Revised edition 2008) on each page and the front cover, then presumably it is the latest copy despite the colour. Although we have the British Model Engineering Liaison Group supposedly all pulling towards the same destination there seems to be some confusion to which platform they should finally be using.

[ripslider]

OK - Getting a CE mark seems to be fairly simple, at least for smaller boilers

A CE mark can be self certified, under controls. These are:

Boiler size:
self certification for boilers is based on pressure "designated working pressure" and volume.

Pressure (psi) Volume(liters)
7.25 100
14.5 48
29 23
43.5 15
58 11
72.5 8
87 6
101.5 5
116 4
130.5 4
145 3

Additonally:

Boiler or surrounding equipment, in this case the train itself, needs to have:

Pressure gauge
Water level gauge

Safety valve

instructions for use

a mechanism to remove the heat once boiler is no longer in use

eans of removing residual hot water from boiler when no longer in use

Must come with the following either on paper or stanped onto a plate:

the name and address or other means of identification of the manufacturer
and, where appropriate, of his authorised representative established within
the Community,
the year of manufacture,
identification of the pressure equipment according to its nature, such as
type, series or batch identification and serial number,
essential maximum/minimum allowable limit;


Maker, or designer, must:

draw up technical documentation which must enable an assessment to be made of the
conformity of the pressure equipment with the requirements of the Regulations which apply
to it. It must, as far as is relevant to such assessment, cover the design, manufacture and
operation of the pressure equipment and contain:
- a general description of the pressure equipment
- conceptual design and manufacturing drawings
- descriptions and explanations necessary for an understanding of the drawings and
the operation of the pressure equipment
- a list of the harmonised standards applied and a description of the solutions adopted
to meet the essential safety requirements where harmonised standards have not been
applied
-results design calculations made, examinations carried out etc
- test reports
- ensure manufacturing process complies with technical documentation
-affix CE marking
-draw up written declaration of conformity
retain declaration of conformity and technical documentation for 10 years


If I was going to make a boiler out of the "model boilers and boiler making" book, then the vast majority of the above is already available.


"harmonised standards in this case are:

EC Pressure Equipment directive, appendix D, parts, 2.10, 2.11, 3.4 and 5(a) and (d) ( which is the bit about safety valves, pressure gauge etc.


As long as all this is together, I can have my friend build me a boiler - to within given pressure and volume limits, self certify it with a CE mark - well, he will, get it pressure tested and insured with £5m of public liability insurance, and I reckon the whole lot will cost me less than £500 ( at "rates for mates" from my friend )

Thought this might be interesting to somebody


Steve

[alanstepney]

You will find that the insurance company will want to check your friends welding, including having him do test pieces which they then examine, etc.
They will also want to see material test certificates, see the plates as prepared, and then, and only then, allow him to weld them.
They may wish to see the boiler part-built, and then again when completed.

Overall, it isnt as easy as many people think.
It is the cost of compliance that has greatly reduced the number of boiler makers, as many found that it cost far more than they could ever recover from the sales they would be able to secure.

About the best advice is either buy one from one of the established boiler makers, or make it yourself, from copper. (Assuming that you are not a suitably qualified welder.)

[mutley]

until your friend looks into what it will cost himto have his work assessed by a notable body for the CE mark, on going insurance to cover him for the next X number of years , the fact he has to keep records of matrials used etc, at which point he might as well become a pro boiler maker as that is what you are effectively asking.
You havent said what size boiler you need but steel boilers are considerably cheaper to buy than a copper one from a established builder.


Andy