boiler rules, insurance and legality

[havoc]

The following remark in the thread "published boiler design" is something I would like to discuss deeper. Keep in mind this is really something I would like an answer to because I fear that a lot of talk about those boiler rules is circular reasoning. It has nothing to do with what is inside those rules.

Who decides?
Ultimately, the insurers, or to be accurate, the insurers engineers.
As we have the concession that clubs are allowed to test boilers , which they do on behalf of the insurance companies, that responsibility os therefore delegated to the club boiler inspectors.

The topic of boiler codes and inspections popped up at the last club meeting as well (one of those boomerang topics). And again it was linked with insurance. And like usual there was a lot of suppositions but no real answers.

Now as I understand it: the only legal document is the EU publication ratified by the member states.

Always it is said that "we have exemptions". But who has the power to decide those and put them on paper and say they have legal value? As I see it the only ones who can say that are the EU (whoever that is).

It is always refered that the insurers -in some way- agree to accept our own written boiler rules as binding. Is there anyone that knows how this came about? Has the insurer signed that he is prepared to insure all boilers build according to published rules that state those exceptions? Have the insurer engineers reviewed those rules? Have they "examined" the boiler inspectors?

I'm really interested in the legal status of the boiler codes. Sometime, someone has said: "this are the rules and if we live by them then we are insured and have nothing to fear". Is there anybody here on the forum that knows first hand who decided that? As I see it the insurer cannot waive legal requirements. Any party sustaining damages could go to court if they don't agree and the court would follow the law, not some gentlemans agreement.

Why I want to know is that each time this comes up the same arguements are used but once you put everything next to each other there are holes in it. When you ask "is the club insured for such accidents?" the answer is "yes". But next you hear that it is your own "third party insurance" that will cover it. This is also the answer I got from my insurer. The same one said that "likely" G1 would be covered as this can be considered "a hobby" but not larger passenger carrying size. (there is even a standard paragraph excluding accidents caused by the use of motor cars and "railroad" equipment)

[alanstepney]

I can only comment about the situation in the UK, as, whilst I would think it is the same where you are, I dont know that for certain.

There are two aspects of this.
The first is insurance.
The insurance provided by our clubs is based upon a master policy issued by the insurance company concerned.
Each club has, or could obtain, a copy of that policy which would clearly spell out the basis for the insurance.
Reading that would probably answer all the usual questions, although some documents are so worded that even teams of lawyers can argue over the precise meaning of a word or phrase.
Despite that, as far as insurance goes, that document is THE definitive statement.

As for tests, codes and design, there are, as you say, EU rules for pressure vessels.
The (UK) Health & Safety Executive are the enforcing body here (in the UK) and they are the ones with whom the present test procedures etc were agreed.
One of the parties to the discussions and the agreement, were the insurers, so, yes, they did agree.

As for "testing the testers", in "our" case the insurance company has delegated the testing to people at each club.
Although some may feel that this isnt the best arrangement, it is about the only practical and economic one. Most clubs and boiler inspectors take the responsibility seriously, and, in many cases, the people concerned are both qualified and able to perform their duties.

[havoc]

Thanks, so broadly there has been consultation between HSE, the insurers and the clubs that lead to the test procedures. As long as that is not revoked it stands (?).

I find it interesting that all clubs are insured by the same company. I don't think that this is the case over here.

although some documents are so worded that even teams of lawyers can argue over the precise meaning of a word or phrase.

As usual with those people. So what it all means will be decided with the first court decision on the matter.

[russell]

As usual with those people. So what it all means will be decided with the first court decision on the matter

Or at a later appeal when the lawers (who also wrote the original) have made even more money

Russell.

[Chris Kelland]

Hi All,

Not all clubs are insured by the same insurance company! My club is not insured by Royal & Sun Alliance. However, all our insurance requires is that boilers are tested, and those members that test them are competant to do so and to a recognised standard, (the ACOP). Do not need to be qualified, different thing.

The UK test code was written by the Model Engineering Liasison Group, the members of which comprise reps from HSE, Royal & Sun Alliance Engineering, Association of Copper Boilermakers and the seven major club Associations. The UK test code has ACOP status (approved code of practice) a bit like the Highway Code, not in itself law, but complience with the ACOP demonstrates compliance with the regulation.

Everyone seems happy with this arrangement and over the years has worked well.


Chris K.

[metalworker]

Chris K raises an interesting point which I don't think has ever been answered,but is becoming more important now that builders are modifying some of the older designs.
This is the definition of the word "competant" when applied to boiler testers.
I am not criticising those who volunteer to do this job in any way but if a boiler design is modified, how many club boiler inspectors are capable of carrying out the necessary calculations to check the valididty of those modifications.
There are many boiler inspectors who as long term elder statesmen of the hobby have been in the position for years, well before the modern litigious society developed who rely on experience or gut feeling for these things.
In other places in this forum, builders are advised to "check with your boiler inspector" regarding any design changes, I am not sure this is enough these days.
The results could possibly land the boiler inspector, club and builder in trouble if things ever got to a court case.

[peterseager]

The results could possibly land the boiler inspector, club and builder in trouble if things ever got to a court case.

This is obviously true but could, if it was allowed to, kill the hobby. It hasn't yet so the only way forward I see is to continue to take real safety seriously and ensure the best endeavors of everyone keep us safe from the lawyers.

Peter

[alanstepney]

In most clubs, boilers are inspected & tested by TWO people, one of whom has some technical qualifications, and the other, plenty of experience.
I realise that not all clubs operate the same policy, but it is a good one.

However, all clubs are well aware of the legal position, and boiler inspector take their duties seriously.
Experience is invaluable, and the calculations needed are quite simple, and shouldnt be beyond the ability of the average person.

Yes, it is enough.

We, in this hobby have an excellent record for safety.

I really cant understand why people keep plugging away at the same points, trying to "prove" that what is done at present isnt correct, and, in effect, asking for more rules and regulations.
Yes, try hard enough and I am sure that will happen, and the result will be so much added expense that many, if not most, wont be able to afford the hobby.

[havoc]

I really cant understand why people keep plugging away at the same points, trying to "prove" that what is done at present isnt correct, and, in effect, asking for more rules and regulations.

People aren't asking for more rules, they are asking for "what is THE rule?". And it looks as if there isn't an answer apart from "we have always done it this way". There isn't some paper bearing official "seal" that clearly states all the steps to be taken for a boiler to be:
- in the clear for ALL clubs and uses
- in the clear for all insurances
- that states clearly what is acceptable and what not (in minute detail)
- what has to be done when a plan dates from before the last rules came in force
- who has the last word when there is a dispute

As long as that isn't there the same questions will come back.

[alanstepney]

There ARE rules.

They are clearly laid down, and based upon both technical and legal requirements.

[Tony K]

I'm with Alan on this one - we have a system with clear rules and responsibilities, which get updated in the light of experience, operated by responsible people. Sometimes we have to use judgment - something mankind seems now to prefer not to do - in the false hope of pursuing and closing every loop-hole, which is impossible.

Nobody on this thread is suggesting a better system or even an alternative.

Time to stop nit-picking and put up or shut up guys (IMHO), not wishing to offend of course.

[Chris Kelland]

All the answers to most! of the questions are in the latest revision of the boiler test code. The 'Blue Book'. If your club is not one of those in the BMELG then you will have to go down the commercial testing route. Remember if you leave you club and do not join another affiliated club your test certificate is invalid.

Sorry Alan, but very few club boiler testers have qualifications. There is no requirement in the 'blue book' for testers to be qualified, just deemed to be competent. These two terms have specific legal meanings I think it essential to get them right.

As an aside, after the last change to the certificates and the test procedure, I think that things are as good as we can get them - for the time being. I would like to think that quite a few of my club's testers could 'do the calcs' if required.

Moving on, it appears that there are fewer ME's that build their own boiler these days, most opting to buy a nice shiny 'E marked' boiler from a boilermaker, where are our next generation of boiler tester's coming from? will we be following the Northern Fed and running boiler testing training classes. I've heard worse ideas.


Chris K.

[Tony K]

Jun 30, 2009 21:37:58 GMT Chris Kelland said:

Moving on, it appears that there are fewer ME's that build their own boiler these days, most opting to buy a nice shiny 'E marked' boiler from a boilermaker, where are our next generation of boiler tester's coming from? will we be following the Northern Fed and running boiler testing training classes. I've heard worse ideas.
Chris K.

I think there are fewer making boilers. I have only one concern - we are developing double standards. That said, some are still making boilers and, because of the price of a professional boiler, some are turning to more experienced club members for guidance in making their own. But, as you say Chris, not enough.

The NF Boiler Seminars were a good idea. What it did was to improve consistency and highlight anything needing attention in the future. Any improvement in the knowledge has to be good.

[alanstepney]

I like the idea of seminars and periodic meetings between boiler inspectors.
Although I wouldnt wish it to be compulsory, I do feel that all boiler inspectors could benefit from exchanges of ideas, and some may need an update in their knowledge.

Of course, when one is dealing with volunteers, it has to allow for peoples time, travel etc, so would need to impinge upon them as little as possible.

One possible answer would be some short "update and refresher to the rules" seminars, run at and during the major exhibitions and open only to club boiler inspectors. As many would be at the exhibitions, it would save their time and efforts.

Whilst this thread has mainly been concerned with the amateur builder, it is possible that there may be more concerns with some of the so-called professionals.
I will be posting more about this shortly: hopefully by the weekend.

[Shawki Shlemon]

In OZ the AMBSC has the answers to all the above questions . We have a National comprehensive code covering all the issues raised above and we have conventions every year (so far) and boiler inspector from all clubs in Australia ( a very good attendance ) attend the meeting and discuss matters raised by AMBSC and every one can raise new issues and these end up as amendments or referred to committees to investigate and report to AMBSC for consideration .I am sure in UK all the issues are covered in some shape or form but what is required is a national code recognised by all and approved by government authority and then adhered to by all the interested parties . That is what we do here.

[Chris Kelland]

This season, City of Oxford SME has started having a pre season meeting with boiler testers and witness's. This served as an update and had quite useful outcomes. We also had the same meeting for our Track Stewards, for public running. again V good outcomes.

Shawki, The 'blue book' or to give it it's full name, The Examination & Testing of Miniature Steam Boilers, is the national difinitive code for model engineering. This recognised by all parties and has the status of an approved code of practice.


Chris.

[havoc]

The 'blue book' or to give it it's full name, The Examination & Testing of Miniature Steam Boilers, is the national difinitive code for model engineering. This recognised by all parties and has the status of an approved code of practice.

So if you build a boiler according to what is in it and you present it at a boiler tester he will test it? Or only if you are member of any of the "parties"? And if it is tested any insurance company will accept it? And any club will let me run because I have a certificate for my boiler?

And if I present my boiler at an official agreed testing instance they will test my boiler according to tose rules? They should if they are recognised as a "definitive national code".

[alanstepney]

Shawki, we not only have to adhere to UK laws, but also EU laws and rules.
It took several years, lots of meetings, and plenty of negotiation, to reach the situation we have now.
It works, and works well. No doubt, over time, some changes may be made, but right now, things appear to be working OK.

Havoc,
Club boiler inspectors will test boilers owned by members, free of charge.
That same club will have a bulk insurance policy that covers all members.
Once you have the certificate, yes, you can run at any club.

Some clubs MIGHT agree to test boilers for non-members (and no doubt charge to do so-but that person would not be able to avail themselves of the club insurance).

Those who do nto wish to join a club, can use one of the commercial boiler inspectors, (who
naturally charge for their service), and arrange their own insurance.

[albert]

Hello,
In my home club it is an unwritten duty to show your copper boiler to the testers in its part built form so they can see what thy are going to be asked to put there name to.
I can see no problem with this idear--if a builder can --then he is hiding something.
PS--steel boilers must arrive completed and with all the correct paper work.Again I see no problems with this.
Albert

[havoc]

OK, but will any insurance agree to insure a boiler to that code?

I'm not stuborn, but I find that a lot of questions regarding boilers and related issues are met with very vague answers. Also a lot of "at the discretion of the boiler inspector" pops up (like when there is mention of adapting old plans to new rules).

I really don't find it clear where this all stands. On one hand you have the EC law and that is clear. You comply or you don't. Not the inspector you ask to test a boiler, not the insurer. But this "code of practise" doesn't look so strong as it sounds.

So will any "commercial boiler inspector" use that code to approve a boiler presented to him? Or will he use the EC rules? My take is the latter.